VPX12 New Version now out - New Features - Old bugs?

browj2 wrote on 7/24/2020, 12:23 PM

Hi Ray,

The Mixer is for tracks and track effects, not objects and object effects. The Audio Cleaning tool is to clean objects, not tracks. In MEP, you can apply (copy/paste effects) any of the cleaning and other object effects to other objects on any track, including all objects. That is one of the beauties of MEP. Other than Noise Reduction, the tool has a compressor, equalizer, compressor and Stereo FX. For Noise Reduction - that is normally done on an object, not a track - you analyze the object and DeClip, DeNoise or DeHiss it, not everything. The audio of my video clips that is on track 2 does not require the same treatment across the board. Thus I and everyone else, require the possibility to do object cleaning and effects.

Under the mixer, you have exactly the same things - compressor, equalizer, compressor and Stereo FX and more for the Track.

If you only want to apply an effect to an object, use the Audio Cleaning tool (or an external audio editor). If you want to apply effects to a track use the Mixer.

What you are implying is that the object Audio Cleaning tool should not exist. That would be a huge step backwards.

Why is this so hard to understand?

Making a copy of a file is done with Windows Explorer - copy the file, paste it in another folder. Nothing gets transformed. All I said was to use a copy of the file - which is obviously identical to the other one - keeping one copy safely tucked away in case you mess it up. There is no difference between the copy and the original. You can always change the filename of one of them - but the point is that it is just a copy - there is no loss or change of the file itself. When you back up a file, you have a copy of exactly the same file - nothing is different.

John CB

CubeAce wrote on 7/24/2020, 12:58 PM

Hi John.

If a track is cleaned as you describe then is it altered or still the original sound file? If it's not the original sound file then that is what I'm referring in this instance as a copy. It has to be resampled unless those effects are running real-time or implemented during the mix down. I did not say or imply those effects should not exist. I would just prefer them to be available in the MEP audio mixer as well.

Ray.

emmrecs wrote on 7/24/2020, 2:11 PM

@CubeAce

Hi Ray

those effects are running real-time or implemented during the mix down

I would prefer to say "applied" or "fixed" during the mixdown, but yes, what you are saying is correct. Those FX are "burned into" the file ONLY on Export/Render. To me it is the equivalent of using a multitrack DAW - I'm most used to Adobe Audition - where any effect is "committed" into the file only when creating the final mixdown.

Jeff

browj2 wrote on 7/24/2020, 2:45 PM

@CubeAce

Hi Ray,

Further to what Jeff said, in keeping with the principle of non-destructive editing, MEP/VPX does not apply effects or anything else destructively - all effects are non-destructive and live, both in the object Audio Cleaning tool and the Mixer. Just like video effects, these can slow down preview mode if numerous. The only time that the original audio file could be touched is when you use it in an external editor, as I pointed out in the description about using ME3. To avoid this, as I explained, doing a mixdown creates a new file which is then sent to the external editor. In this way you can avoid modifying the original file. The warning is for those who may ignore this and send out to the external editor an audio file, say a song (mp3, wave, ogg) that they put on the timeline), and the external editor could overwrite the original file. MEP will not do this, the external editor can do it.

Also, as I pointed out, the correct procedure is what I described happens with Audio & Music Lab - it does a mixdown for AV files to get a wave file which is then sent to the external editor, or it makes a copy of the audio file without resampling it or rendering it, and appends a code to the end of it. This file, which is just a copy of the original, is opened in the external editor and overwritten upon exiting. If you send the result out again from MEP to an external editor, this file will be copied and given a suffix of 2, then 3.4, etc In MEP you can do an undo and get the last version back, or the one before if it exists, right back to the original. The external editor renders the file with any changes that you made. This is what should happen in all cases (different external audio editors) but does not, which is why I have this on the bug list.

Note that the external editors can also be used non-destructively, just like MEP, and saved as a project. However, the final result has to be rendered out, just like exporting to a video file in MEP.

Furthermore, you cannot export from MEP to a file (video or audio) and use the same filename as a video clip or an audio file in the same folder as an audio or video clip that is also on the timeline. MEP will tell that the file is in use and stop you from overwriting it. Of course, there is nothing stopping you from overwriting a file that is not on the timeline after telling MEP to overwrite it. I presume that there are some users who have no clue as to what they are doing and will find a way to screw it up. These are the same users who will purposely overwrite a file and then complain that the software did it.

There is another potential for destructive editing and that is with photos. You can send a photo from the timeline to an external editor, modify it, and overwrite the original. Usually, the external photo editor will warn you that this is about to happen and it is up to you as to what you want. I use PaintShop Pro and have it set to put a copy of the original in a sub-folder. PhotoDesigner that comes with MEP/VPX warns you before overwriting a photo file. Again, it is best to have a copy of the photo file saved somewhere else.

However, like for audio files MEP does not do any of this in the program. Everything in MEP/VPX is non-destructive, with one potential exception. File and folders in the Import interface are live with your hard drives - if you delete a folder or file, it will be deleted from your hard drive. It seems that there were a couple of brilliant people using PhotoStory who deleted things from the Import tab of the Media Pool, and then blamed Magix, stating that PhotoStory deleted theirs files/folders.

John CB

CubeAce wrote on 7/24/2020, 3:47 PM

@emmrecs @browj2

Hi. Guys.

Then I am even more confused. If the re-imported audio file from ME3 is not a file with applied effects but instead 'burned' on export, how can the alterations be heard in the mix within MEP (or VPX) before the final mix down? I understand an altered copy cannot have the same filename as an original file within a project. That is because it is an altered file and would, if permitted overwrite the original file in the folder, and rather implies their are alterations to the recorded information that cannot then be put back to its original state. In effect, resampled. A new version.

Or, is that file used only for playback similar to the proxy files, and the original file used on export along with the applied effects in use at that time?

If that is the case then it makes some sort of sense but it's not explained well anywhere.

Ray.

browj2 wrote on 7/25/2020, 9:36 AM

@CubeAce

Just so that you are perfectly clear on how MEP and other video editors work, they use files from your hard drive on the timeline. No copy is made (unless you use proxies, but that is different); the file is not in the video editor; the video editor retains the path and filename and any editing that you do in the video editor. If you split a video file on the timeline and delete half of it, this is remembered as instructions by the project file (MVP). The original file is never touched, but has to remain in the same location with the same filename for MEP to be able to use it. That is, the MPV file is just a set of instructions. It is non-destructive. Nothing that you do within MEP modifies an audio, video or photo file in any way whatsoever. When you play back in MEP, it reads the file from the hard drive and applies any editing done to it in real-time.

The process for using an external editor (other than AML) on the audio part of a video clip as I have described is:

Isolate the clip - Solo track, make range
Mixdown the range which creates a wave file, A.wav, puts in on a track, and removes the audio part of the video from the timeline
Right-click the wave object, A.wav, selecting Edit Wave Externally, opens A.wav in the external editor
Make changes in the external editor - cleaning, mastering, spectral editing, volume curve, etc. However, you cannot alter the length; this important as the duration is used by MEP
Exit the external editor - it asks if you want to save or not, meaning overwrite A.wav
Selecting yes re-renders A.wav keeping the same filename
External editor closes and focus returns to MEP
Unsolo any tracks, if necessary (see step 1)
Playback - the audio of A.wav is now the new version and you will hear the difference. MEP plays back the modified audio file. Remember, audio, video and images used are not actually in the project, they are on the hard disk and used by the project, so any change to an audio file or photo will be what is played back in MEP. That is how it works.

If you put an audio file, B.wav, on the timeline, save, close MEP. Open an audio editor and import B.wav, modify it by doing cleaning and mastering, even just normalizing or adding reverb, then save, it will ask you if you want to overwrite B.wav. Yes. The file B.wav is now different. This is destructive editing - the original file gets modified.

Open your project in MEP. Play it back. B.wav has been modified. There is exactly what happens when you use the external editor from within MEP; you are using a file that has been destructively modified.

In the first case, you do not have to export from MEP to hear the new version. The new version is just the modified A.wav. As I said at the beginning, MEP plays back the file from the hard drive - there is no copy within MEP, only the file that is on the hard drive.

"...how can the alterations be heard in the mix within MEP (or VPX) before the final mix down?" If you can't hear the modifications when you play back within MEP, you definitely won't hear them when you export. The same applies everywhere. What plays back on the timeline is what it will be when exported.

Again, when MEP plays back, it is using files that are on your hard drive. If you modify a file, then next time you play back in MEP it will play back the modified file - there is no unmodified file, there is only one file.

I explained about photos. If you modify a photo, PH,jpg, by using the external editor from within MEP, the photo PH,jpg will be updated on the timeline because MEP is reading the PH.jpg file from the hard drive. This is destructive editing done by the external editor, not by MEP. MEP is reading the image file that is on the hard drive, and it happens to have been modified, so it shows the modified file. However, sometimes you have to reload the project to see the changes to the photo.

In both cases, MEP does not lock the wav or jpg file against changes made in an external editor. This is the whole point of being able to use an external editor, destructively modify the file in an external editor - with the inherent danger of you messing up the file and not having a copy of the original just in case.

Proxy files are just copies of an original video file, not audio or photos, in a format the makes it easier to work on the timeline. The proxy files never get changed, nor do the original video files. When you export, MEP just uses the original video files for rendering instead of the proxy files.

If you delete a video file that is used in a project and replace it in the same folder with another one outside of MEP, using the same file name, when you open MEP it will complain because the file information that is retained in the MPV file is now different from the file that it is reading - the duration is different.

If you do the same with a photo, MEP has no problem loading it. A photo has no duration and the new image will be displayed as per the instructions in the MVP file. However, if the proportions are different, MEP will display it with the proportions of the original file because MEP has retained this information and does not update it (I tried it).

Again, there are no proxy files for audio objects or photos. MEP uses the actual file from the hard drive.

John CB

CubeAce wrote on 7/26/2020, 7:25 AM

@browj2

Hi John.

All I am asking is which sound file is used on exporting the finished video to a final render once an altered audio file from using the external editor is in the project timeline. (In this instance,using ME3 as I have no idea what AML is).

From what you have said so far it would seem be the file from ME3.

Ray.

browj2 wrote on 7/26/2020, 9:14 AM

@CubeAce

Hi Ray,

Aaaargh! Where did I go wrong?

"All I am asking is which sound file is used on exporting the finished video to a final render once an altered audio file from using the external editor is in the project timeline. (In this instance,using ME3 as I have no idea what AML is).

From what you have said so far it would seem be the file from ME3."

Short answer: MEP uses the contents of whatever is in the audio file. If it was modified by ME3 or any other program, MEP does not know this or care, it just reads that file from the hard drive and uses it - always!

The first line of the previous post is:

"Just so that you are perfectly clear on how MEP and other video editors work, they use files from your hard drive on the timeline. No copy is made (unless you use proxies, but that is different); the file is not in the video editor; the video editor retains the path and filename and any editing that you do in the video editor. "

MEP uses the files that are on your hard drive. There is no copy or other version in MEP - MEP only knows that it is to use the file that is on your hard drive.

If you put AudioA.wav from FolderX on the timeline, MEP is using and always uses the contents of AudioA.wav in FolderX. If you modify AudioA.wav in FolderX using ME3 or any other audio program, like Cubace, and you overwrite the file AudioA.wav in FolderX, MEP will use that modified file because there is no other file, no other version!

Maybe where I went wrong in my explanation is not making it doubly clear that if you have AudioA.wav in FolderX on the timeline and you right-click, select Edit Wave Externally, and the file opens in ME3 - this does not mean that ME3 is taking some kind of waveform from the timeline, ME3 is opening, using, and modifying AudioA.wav in FolderX. MEP simply gives ME3 the name of the file and location and ME3 uses that to open AudioA.wav in FolderX; that is all. See * below. When you save, you overwrite the contents of AudioA.wav in FolderX. When you go back to MEP and press play, MEP plays the contents of AudioA.wav in FolderX because that is all there is. There is no other version that MEP has or knows about.

If you now render out your project, MEP, always has and always will, use AudioA.wav in FolderX in whatever state that you left it.

So if you send AudioA.wav in FolderX to ME3, put a huge reverb on it, save it (AudioA.wav in FolderX gets overwritten), go back to MEP, press play, you will hear MEP play this new version of AudioA.wav in FolderX - with the huge reverb. There is nothing else - MEP has no other version, it only reads and uses the contents of AudioA.wav in FolderX.

Is this not clear? What do you not understand about how MEP works in this aspect?

AML = Magix Audio & Music Lab and I have talked about this extensively throughout this whole long thread, including what happens when using ME3 as the external editor vs what happens when using AML. This is the basis for the bug on the list. Only AML works correctly - go back and read what I said about it. See the video at the end of this thread.

ACL = Audio Cleaning Lab

SFACL = SoundForge Audio Cleaning Lab

MEP = Movie Edit Pro

VPX = Video Pro X

ME3 = Music Editor 3

* If you put a reverb or any other effect on AudioA.wav on the timeline, that is a live effect and when you play back, MEP plays back AudioA.wav in FolderX and applies the effect in real time. This effect is not in any wave file - it is only a live effect in MEP and non-destructive (you can simply turn the effect off). When you use Edit Wave Externally, as I said, ME3 will open AudioA.wav in FolderX, thus you will not hear the effect that is live in MEP - it is not in AudioA.wav in FolderX, it is only within MEP and only applied when you playback AudioA.wav in FolderX on the timeline. If you modify AudioA.wav in FolderX in some way, the next time that you play back in MEP, you will hear the effect applied to whatever is in AudioA.wav in FolderX as modified.

The only ways to get the effect hard-coded onto a wave file would be to do a mixdown or export to wave. A mixdown uses AudioA.wav in FolderX and the effect or effects applied in MEP (both object and track effects) and creates a new file (AudioA_mixed-down.wav in FolderX) and puts this new file on your hard drive and on the timeline, replacing the previous file, AudioA.wav in FolderX, on the timeline. MEP now will use AudioA_mixed-down.wav in FolderX because that is what is on the timeline. If you send AudioA_mixed-down.wav in FolderX to ME3 and makes modifications, save - overwrite AudioA_mixed-down.wav in FolderX, then when you go back to MEP and press play, MEP will play the new version of AudioA_mixed-down.wav in FolderX - nothing else.

John CB

CubeAce wrote on 7/26/2020, 9:30 AM

@browj2

Hi John.

"Short answer: MEP uses the contents of whatever is in the audio file."

Thank you.

simmiv wrote on 7/28/2020, 2:16 AM

I had some time today, so I upgraded from 17.0.1.32 to the latest patched version 18.0.1.82. It opens up my projects fine and seems to work fine until I try to use the object zoom i.e. the plus button to zoom into the timeline. It then simply crashes and restarts without any indication or error. I've raised a trouble ticked with Magix and hope they can guide me to a fix. I gave them a link to this video, which shows me doing this three times with the same project, first on version 16.0.1.242 and then on 17.0.1.32, where it works fine. The last is version 18.0.1.82 and shows how it simply closes down and restarts. I've also noted that when running the version 18, it sometimes creates a strange corruption on the second monitor, i.e. the last picture in the video. Not sure if that is somehow related or a different issue. I'm running two video cards Intel HD4600 and now Radeon R9 200 series. Doesn't matter which one I choose in the display settings, this issue happens regardless.. When switching software versions I do an uninstall and then run ccleaner on the registry in order to clean out any orphaned Magix key's before installing the next version. Without the ability to do object zoom, I can't use the new version. Hopefully Magix Support will help me out.. Attached is the video I gave them as well.. The audio lags on that video, these are *.3GP files I renamed to *.MP4 so I could import them. I did do the recreate frametable, but didn't want to spend much time fixing the audio lag..

emmrecs wrote on 7/28/2020, 3:48 AM

@simmiv

Screen recording software would enable you to record your screen without the necessity to hold your phone or camera in front of the screen! (Just a suggestion. 😇😇)

I've just tested the Zoom problem on my machine, running the latest version (including the .82 patch which was released only very recently) and cannot reproduce it so this does appear to be something caused by your system.

I realise that is no comfort to you but, hopefully, Magix technical support will be able to offer advice, especially if you are asked to run the latest version of their Syscheck utility.

Jeff

johnebaker wrote on 7/28/2020, 3:39 PM

@simmiv

Hi

. . . . I'm running two video cards Intel HD4600 and now Radeon R9 200 series . . . . latest patched version 18.0.1.82 . . . .

I suspect the issue is with the Radeon graphics card which VPX is trying to use for hardware acceleration and is failing either due to the R9 2xx driver or not being up to the requirements VPX is placing on it - the R9 200 series is relatively old (2013-2014) and for hardware acceleration in VPX 12 the recommended AMD graphics card is the newer RX 470 - and later models.

Check in Windows Graphics settings if VPX is listed and if so which graphics card/chip it is using.

If it is set to the AMD then try changing it to the HD4600 and see if VPX crashes.

John EB.

simmiv wrote on 7/28/2020, 8:54 PM

I've now tried all the settings in Windows Graphics without any change at all. I haven't tried removing my AMD graphics card yet, it's more of an operation! I normally use Video Pro X to do screen capture, but when it is it that crashes, that doesn't work! Anyway I've now run the syschecker utility at the request of Magix and sent them the results. I also put in a registry entry to have windows generate a dump when the "video_pro_x.exe" executable crashes. I then provided the dump to Magix as well. I used the windbg to analyze it and it comes up with HEAP_CORRUPTION_c0000374. I haven't explored that yet, so I'll wait and see what Magix advise. As to the age of the R9 280x card, it's still a supported product by AMD. The drivers are dated 20/05/2020 so this is a well supported card by AMD.

emmrecs wrote on 7/29/2020, 8:40 AM

@browj2 @johnebaker @Scenestealer

I think the .82 patch has introduced yet another bug!

This, for me, is repeatable for both "old" (pre-82 patch) and "new" (post-82 patch) projects: there are no image objects shown on the video timeline! Thus, visual location of "events" for editing is now impossible!!! Screenshots below; the first the project open in VPX, the second the same project open in MEP.

I have raised a Support Ticket for this, but have also found the "solution". It now seems to be necessary to Zoom in to a comparatively "short time period" and the images/thumbnails appear and, most important, remain!

I wonder why??? 😱😱😱

Jeff

johnebaker wrote on 7/29/2020, 10:23 AM

@emmrecs

Hi Jeff

Cannot replicate in .82 patch using mp4's, thumbnails start appearing on timeline within seconds.

Using AVI files - AVC/h.264 and MPEG 3 audio - took a little longer to create the thumbnails eg for 15 clips (total run time 2m30s) took about 20 secs.

HTH

John EB

emmrecs wrote on 7/29/2020, 10:43 AM

@johnebaker

Hi John.

Thanks for checking!

At the moment VPX is exporting a 2 hour video file so cannot check again for a little while, at least. Once completed, I will try opening another "old" project and see what happens with that. I'm not sure whether this "problem" is in any way connected to the fact that this current project, where the problem first appeared for me, was a transfer from VHS - the transfer carried out using MEP because the DV Recording module in VPX is currently non-functional - saved in MEP and then reopened in VPX, which promptly crashed!! (Thankfully, I was able to open the project in VPX on a second or third try and then resaved it under a new name.)

I did wonder whether this was a case that the thumbnails were simply taking "longer than expected" to be created, but the first time the project was successfully opened in VPX nothing had appeared after about 5 minutes. Having waited that length of time was when I discovered that zooming in seemed to force their creation.

"Another fun day at the coalface".

Jeff

simmiv wrote on 7/31/2020, 2:42 AM

Iv'e been working with Magix support in order to isolate the crash issue I have. I tried running on one graphics card at the time, i.e. only the Intel HD 4600 or the AMD Radeon R9 280x by disabling the other one. This didn't change anything. I've been trying different projects and now have discovered that it appears that one jpg image I use causes the crash. In all my dashcam videos I use an image as a background for the beginning title and the end title. If I delete that image from the timeline, I can zoom as much as I like and no crash. Just adding that image causes a crash. I can add any other images or .png files without any problems. This is pretty strange. If anyone want's to try this image on the new version, they are welcome to try. Just create a new project, add the attached image to the timeline if it doesn't crash, try zooming in and out a few times using the plus/minus at the bottom of the timeline.. This image is a scaled down version of the original jpg.

I found the original jpg image file as I've been using this one for many years, simply copying from project to project. The original image is fine! I can copy that one to the timeline and all is well.

Rgds,

Simmi

CubeAce wrote on 7/31/2020, 3:09 AM

@simmiv

Hi.

I wonder if it is related to this problem. Maybe you have created something similar in the conversion that effects the new version of VPX?

Ray.

johnebaker wrote on 7/31/2020, 4:18 AM

@simmiv

Hi Simmi

In addition to @CubeAce comment there are 2 variants of JPG files - the standard and progressive.

The progressive one is often used on websites to cater for viewers on a slow Internet connection.

If the image is a progressive format it may be this that is causing the issue.

Added:

I have tested the image and have no crashing no matter how fast I zoom in/out both horizontally and vertically.

I missed this comment on first read

. . . .I found the original jpg image file as I've been using this one for many years, simply copying from project to project. The original image is fine! I can copy that one to the timeline and all is well. . . .

If you are copying form the last project it was used in to the next and so on then it is possible the multiple decompression/compression has damaged the image.

John EB

simmiv wrote on 7/31/2020, 4:33 AM

This image is simply an image taken on my Canon EOS camera back in 2012. When I began using it as a background for my beginning and end titles, back in 2012, I recall resizing it down in ms paint. I have then used it since in all versions of Video Pro X until version 18. Bear in mind that in the older versions it works fine. It's only version 18 which crashes. I've put the image onto a dropbox folder, along with the original Canon image. These are pretty standard jpg files I would assume. If it doesn't crash anyone elses version 18 of Video Pro X, then I'm stumped!! Here is the link to dropbox for both files https://1drv.ms/u/s!AnKtiksps-5zgdg3hc3jQJqyotwKVQ?e=X2Wcex

johnebaker wrote on 7/31/2020, 4:54 AM

@simmiv

Hi

Thanks for the images.

Having the original as well helped to see what the differences are between them.

The TitleBlank.jpg does crash VPX - I also tested in MEP 2020 where it does not crash!

There is a difference between the 2 programs MEP is still on the original Infusion (1) engine whereas VPX 12 is the new Infusion 2 engine.

They are standard jpg images and it looks like you have reduced the image size by increasing the DPI from 72 DPI to 299 DPI.

This is IMHO and odd way, though not 'illegal' to reduce the file dimensions and may be the cause of the issue.

HTH

John EB.

CubeAce wrote on 7/31/2020, 7:09 AM

@simmiv @johnebaker

Hi Simmiv.

Unfortunately I can't see your files, they appear to be on One Drive not Dropbox. (At least that is where the link is taking me).

I have to agree with John that changing the dpi setting to alter an image file is an odd way to do it as that setting is primarily used for printing images only. I believe the native setting for Canon cameras is 72dpi and for Nikon it is 300dpi. Really you should just adjust to the desired the frame size and leave the dpi settings alone.

Ray.

simmiv wrote on 7/31/2020, 7:30 AM

Thanks Johnbaker and CubeAce..

The files are on Onedrive and should be public, so hopefully are available to anyone.. I'm glad that Johnbaker managed to crash his version on his instance of version 18.. At least I'm not going mad! How this jpg went from 72dpi to 229dpi is as much as a mystery to me as to you.. I haven't touched it for a long time, simply copying it from one project to the next..

I built a template for my intro and ending, just with the jpg files and associated text some weeks ago. I've now update that template with the original JPG file with the 72dpi and it works fine on version 18. Why the infusion engine version 2 can't digest this 229 dpi jpg file is a mystery. I'm sure people do use 300 dpi files from time to time, so this should work.. Hopefully Magix support can look at it and either advise us not to use these higher dpi jpg's or work out a solution..

Rgds,

Simmi

CubeAce wrote on 7/31/2020, 7:38 AM

@simmiv

Hi Simmiv.

Most of my still images are taken with Nikon cameras at 300dpi and I've had no problems within MEP. I don't have VPX though so can't confirm if it's a problem with VPX. I hope not if MEP ever gets the Infusion 2 engine at a later date. It could still be the past conversion process that caused the problem though so I will have to wait and see and try to remember this post.

Ray.