@Scenestealer @browj2 @johnebaker

My "understanding" of the .HDP file format is that it is, in essence, the file that is the "graphic representation" of the waveform on the Timeline screen. For audio work I also use REAPER and Adobe Audition; the former creates "reapeaks" files and the latter "pkf" files, stored alongside the actual audio files and both are the files that create the "image" which represents the waveform on-screen.

Jeff

@emmrecs

Hi Jeff,

That is also my understanding. I'll check again, but my recent testing showed that the Snap Markers, Align snap markers feature that detects transients and shows them, updates the HDP file with the graphical information of the transients.

@Scenestealer @johnebaker

Hi,

The issue of AML, ACL, VSCL goes way back for me. The oldest emails that I can get in Outlook go back to the beginning of 2015. Here is the text of one of them from March 2015:

"External audio editor - further to my previous complaints about Audio & Music
Lab 2014 Premium not working properly when used as the default external editor in
MEP2015Permium, the latest patch seems to have almost resolved the problem. Once
the audio is compiled, MEP opens AML and the audio shows up correctly.
Unfortunately the modified audio file does not come back into MEP correctly upon
closing AML. Magix still has a little work to be done there to get it right.

As well, it was not obvious that one had to compile the audio. This was not the
case in previous versions. With the audio on a separate track, I could right-click
and the command Edit wave externally would be on the list. Clicking on it would
mix down the audio and open the external editor. Now I have to create the audio
wave file using Shift+D, or by selecting Compile audio from the Edit menu. It is
not even available from a right-click on the audio object. Thus many users do not
even know that the audio can be edited using Music Editor 3. Compile audio should
be added to the right-click menu on an audio object."

Prior to that, I had a ticket about AML not working and one about VSCL being a downgrade from ACL (no spectral cleaning, no VST access). AML was billed as the upgrade to Music Editor 3 so it should have worked. The support person who told me that it was not supposed to work didn't know what he was talking about and I politely pointed that out. The very fact that one can change the external editor was proof that it should work, plus the fact that AML was just a new version of ACL which had worked in the past. It was sorted out and AML eventually worked properly.

However, the battle continues and Magix should just look at this and fix it so that whatever the editor, it does a mixdown of the object and opens the resultant file in the external editor - just like AML does.

John CB

A bit OT but I went back to older tickets on-line. I was a bit nasty with Magix, but they deserved it about the VSCL fiasco (still unresolved). They "upgraded" VSCL from version 1.0 to VSCL2014 by removing Spectral Cleaning and some other features (probably VST) and here is what I had to say about that, firstly in the context of right-clicking:

"I changed the audio editing program to VSCL version 1.0 in the settings of VPX6 and tried it. It worked perfectly. VSCL2014 does not work properly and by logic, AML2014 should also work properly from within VPX6, but they do not. Please do not tell me that they are not supposed to work, they are supposed to work. Ask your developers and they will probably tell you that they do work. Well, they do not and something needs to be fixed.

While on this subject, I noted once before to you that VSCL2014 was not an upgrade to Version 1 of VSCL, it was a downgrade. It was an embarrassment for Magix and this version should never have been released. It is basically useless, especially given that one cannot even use it from within VPX6. Magix should give extra special discounts on the next version of AML for anyone who purchased this VSCL2014 disaster. Please pass that message on to Marketing."

In another ticket, August 2014, I reminded them about MX:

"As for my marketing concerns, on the Magix web site all of your programs have an MX tab. For AML it says:

“MX stands for Media-X-Change – the fast exchange of media with other MAGIX programs”

And under MEP, it says:

“open other MAGIX programs directly in Movie Edit Pro 2014 and create amazing titles or the perfect soundtrack.”

So please pass the message along to the marketers and program developers who have forgotten about MX to get ACL, AML, and VSCL to work properly with the other programs and vice versa. This is one of the very important selling features of the Magix suite of programs."

And here we are 6 years later with what should be a simple fix to an old problem.

John CB

@Scenestealer

Hi Peter

. . . . the Extract Sound in the video/audio tab of program settings just imported the picture track without the sound track if it was not ticked . . . .

I was referring to a different option to 'Import video with sound', I had a vague memory that there was an option in the program settings that automatically does what the same as right click Extract sound channels.

Look like my memory did not have a Hyperspace brain fade - it is the manual that is in error.

The manual refers to the Import video with sound as Extract sound from video which is, IMO, not the correct terminology, it should be Import as in the Video/Audio tab

Edit: The inconsistency has existed since 2012/3 - Extract becoming Import first appeared in MEP 2013 (VPX 6?).

John EB

@emmrecs

Hi Jeff

My "understanding" of the .HDP file format is that it is, in essence, the file that is the "graphic representation" of the waveform on the Timeline screen.

AFAIK that is the job of the .HO file. Also the HDP is created without any waveform until you rt. click and choose Create Waveform which then creates the .HO.

The HDP seems more like a "Proxy" that is linked to the original sound.

As the description in FileInfo.com that I copied in my earlier post says:- ".....describes a sound object that has been imported or captured directly in the software; allows destructive edits to the audio data without affecting the original audio; generated automatically when dragging an audio file onto the movie timeline, or when importing a video file that includes audio data."

@browj2

No one can say you didn't give it a decent shot with Magix, John!

@johnebaker

Hi John

I had a vague memory that there was an option in the program settings that automatically does what the same as right click Extract sound channels.

But there never was. Extract sound channels is specific to 5.1 imports.

The manual refers to the Import video with sound as Extract sound from video which is, IMO, not the correct terminology, it should be Import as in the Video/Audio tab.

Yes the age old confusing swopping of terminology in the Magix manual. In my research I found that MEP16 was still calling it Extract sound.

Peter

@Scenestealer

Hi Peter.

Would "allows destructive edits to the audio data without affecting the original audio; generated automatically when dragging an audio file onto the movie timeline, or when importing a video file that includes audio data." mean you can move it around the timeline or alter the order in which it is used similar to the video clips, but not mean actual alteration of the audio files' characteristics? So effectively just being an instruction set. These HDP and HO files always seem to be roughly the same size for each type and just a few KBs in size regardless of the files they represent. I also notice when proxy files are created they always are represented on the audio track, never the video track, and those can be edited via an external editor.

Is all of this maybe just lost in translation?

Ray.

@Scenestealer @browj2 @emmrecs @johnebaker

Hi Guys.

I think I need to explain my thought processes further.

If you have created a project where you do not want to copy any files to but rather use the original files in their locations perhaps on other hard drives, then if you open an external editor it will, or should be working with that original file. The audio editor at that point would have to be able to remain open and be in sync with MEP for the file not to be altered before export or produce a duplicate file to put back into MEP / VPX that you have told it not to do. What you would need is the ability to allow a copy of the audio to be placed in the project folder if the audio editor is not capable of syncing to to the video editor. I don't think you can have it both ways.

Ray.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray

...then if you open an external editor it will, or should be working with that original file.

I think that is where the creation of the wave, after mixdown, comes in - so it takes the audio data from the video file and creates a whole new .WAV sound file and puts it in the Audio Temp folder next to the .HDP and uses this (probably a reference to the WAV) for subsequent editing in the timeline or for further work in the external editor.

I also notice when proxy files are created they always are represented on the audio track, never the video track, and those can be edited via an external editor.

That's because when you create a proxy it creates a wave file for the audio proxy - for the main reason that an uncompressed .WAV does not need decoding and uses less system resources for preview - along with an MXV video proxy. You can choose whether to create this additional .WAV proxy audio or not in the Proxy and Preview Rendering settings and can switch between them (somewhere?) and the original sound IIRC.

Peter

Hi Peter.

I have never seen a temporary sound file stored in the project folder in any temp folder using the import only selection. Is that is what is not being created?

Ray.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray,

Strange, for some reason I am now getting a different font and your name shows up underlined, even after rebooting. However the result after saving is okay.

Try this.

Set up MEP for "Half Waveform Display," "Video Audio on one track," turn off "Automatically create waveform during import," keep on "Import video with sound."

Create a folder in Windows Explorer and copy a video clip that you know works and has some audio in it, a wave file and an ogg file. There are plenty of ogg files under

C:\Users\Public\Documents\MAGIX\Common\Videocontent

Open another instance of Windows Explorer (WE) and navigate to the Audio Temp folder. Make sure that this is the same one as in the Folders of MEP." Sort so that the most recent is on top.

In MEP Media Pool, navigate to this new folder. Import the video clip. It will come in with no waveform.

Look at the folder in WE. You may have to refresh it by clicking on another folder and then back. There will now be an HDP file for the video clip.

Select the clip on the timeline, Ctrl+H to put the audio on a second track. There is no waveform yet. Check back to the folder with WE - no change, still an HDP file.

Click on the audio part on the timeline, Shift+E to create the waveform. Check back the folder in WE (refresh). There is now an H0 file. This contains the waveform display. Check the Audio Temp folder in WE - nothing new.

Now trim the video clip by about half. Save. Look at the folder in WE (refresh). The video file is unchanged - same date same size. Thus this file never gets modified by MEP.

Wave file

Import the wave file. The waveform will be created automatically despite what you have in the Program Settings. Look at the folder in WE (the source folder). You now have H0 (waveform) and HDP files for the wave. Save the project.

Import the OGG file. Check the folder (refresh). Check the Audio Temp folder - you now have an HDP file for the OGG file - the waveform.

Delete the wav and ogg files from the timeline. Save. Check the 2 folders; the temp files are still there.

With Music Editor set as the external audio editor, do a Shift+D to mixdown the audio of the video file. Since there is only one, there is no need to set a range.  The explorer will open with the Project filename with a number appended and .HDP. You can select the folder. Select Audio Temp, ok.

Your audio will be replaced with a red wave file. Check the Audio Temp folder (refresh) and you will see the wave file with H0 and HDP files. Note the size and time. Wait a minute. Save the project. Check (refresh) the Audio Temp folder and the HDP file will probably have a new time corresponding to the save time. The HDP file gets updated every time you save.

Right click on the wave file and select Edit Wave Externally. This opens the file in ME3. Make some changes, enough to make the waveform look different and the file sound different, click on the X to exit, save as requested. The file will be updated on the timeline. Refresh the Audio Temp folder in WE and you'll see a new time for the wav, H0 and HDP files. If you have modified the waveform in ME3 by using the mouse draw button and say, reducing the height of the some of the waves, you will clearly see and hear the difference.

Move the wave clip down to another track. Right-click on the video clip, Audio Functions, Restore original sound and you have the original back. Ctrl+H to put it on a separate track. Compare the waveforms.

Note, I did this in VPX and I am assuming that the same thing happens using MEP.

All

Problem - using ME3 as the external editor will modify original audio files - like a wave or ogg, not the audio of a video clip. However, using AML will first make a copy in the Audio Temp folder, appending a number and replacing the original on the timeline, and modify the copy. Back on the timeline, you can do an undo and the previous version will replaced the new one.

Thus Magix should be requested to have ME3 do the same thing. The original audio file should never be modified.

Another difference with AML as the external editor is that it mixes down only the selected file, putting a copy on the timeline with the same name but with a number appended and .wav. This is what is supposed to happen when an external editor is used.

John CB

@browj2

Hi John.

I will get back to you one that one in a couple of days but the first half seems to be what I'd expect. I will need to read this carefully.

Ray.

@browj2 @johnebaker @emmrecs @Scenestealer

Hi John.

I tried as best I could to replicate your instructions but came unstuck half way through at least and with some variation. The first major variation was I could not find the audio temp folder in the location you gave me. I'll get back to that. The second is however I set MEP up I thought all files would end up in the project folder. Most did with one exception. The HO and HDP files for the OGG file. Last problem. Shift +D brought up a dialogue box. Not the audio editor and as there is no option to open an audio file from a video clip that is imported only, I could not carry on with the rest of your instructions.

However I did make a screenshot of each stage as I went so here are the results in order left to right.

I did find the OGG HO and HDP files in the audio temp folder that was elsewhere on my C: drive.

Ray.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray,

My studio is now in front of the lake near home as my wife finds it pleasant to work here. I find it cumbersome, but pleasant.

Without going into detail, when you do the Ctrl+D, and the WE screen pops up, you have to actually save it as per my instructions:

With Music Editor set as the external audio editor, do a Shift+D to mixdown the audio of the video file. Since there is only one, there is no need to set a range.  The explorer will open with the Project filename with a number appended and .HDP. You can select the folder. Select Audio Temp, ok.

After that, the mixdown will be done and you'll get the wave file with the name that was just saved. Then right-clicking will on the wave file will show the Edit Wave Externally command.

Your Audio Temp folder is in the location set up by MEP by default.

John CB

Hi John.

I really don't understand those last instructions then. ME3 is set as the external editor. Shift + D opens what you see in the third to last image. Then what?

Ray.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray,

It is proposing a filename and location. Just note where and what and accept what it proposes then press OK. That is where the wave file and the HDP and H0 files will be saved after the mixdown. If you do a cancel, it does not do the mixdown.

John CB

@browj2

But John. What mixdown? What editor? what proposal? I'm not getting any of that.

I've shown you each step I could make. Which folders and what files appeared. There is nothing else.

Have you done a complete video of this I can watch?

Ray.

@CubeAce @browj2

Hi Ray

The Mixdown of the audio data from the video to a .WAV.

Editor is Music Editor3.

It is proposing to save the .WAV in the folder you have designated as your export folder in your 6th screen shot. This normally by default is the same as the Magix default C:\xxxxx\Project Folder location but you have reassigned the export folder to your I:/ drive.

HTH

Peter

@Scenestealer

Thank you Peter.

I understand what I'm looking for now.

I will try to continue that later.

Ray.

@Scenestealer

@johnebaker

@browj2

@emmrecs

Hi Guys.

Well that was fun turning an audio file red. I also think I understand the complaint that the same can't be done with an audio file format.

The problem is, that it can be done almost the same way.

MEPs job is to protect original video files along with their sound tracks but not true for audio files.

So the solution to my mind is how you save the altered audio file in whatever editing program you use. Don't just close the editor down and accept the program solution. Instead export the file in whatever format you chose and give it a new name placing it in the desired location. When you close the program, don't save the file. You then have the original and new file to play with. The result is the same as with the video clip except you have to import the altered clip into MEP and either mute or cut the original out.

From a personal viewpoint I find this a bit of an odd way to treat audio mix-downs that should be more flexible than this by using the MEP mixer with the plug-ins on each channel, but understand the limitations in that direction as audio restoration and effects seem separate entities within MEP.

Ray.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray,

I'm glad that you have it sorted out.

Remember, the mixdown is just to get a wave file on the timeline. If you already have an audio file (wav, ogg) then no mixdown is required and you can proceed directly to the external editor.

However, you can still do a mixdown on the wave or ogg file first, which will propose a new filename and replace the old file or files (whatever was in the range/track). Then you edit that. The original file is still safe and sound. That is much quicker (and safer) than sending the original to the editor and then remembering to save with a different filename, followed by deleting the original and importing the modified files.

As well, you could also have done this directly outside of MEP, saved with a different filename and then imported the completed file into MEP.

But, if you're recording narration directly into MEP/VPX you can edit the virgin file or do a mixdown and send that to the external editor. I do many voice recordings, put them on one track, and then do a mixdown of just that track. My original files are still safe and I have one wave file for editing externally.

You lost me on the part about the mixer. "From a personal viewpoint I find this a bit of an odd way to treat audio mix-downs that should be more flexible than this by using the MEP mixer with the plug-ins on each channel..."

What do you mean by more flexible? I don't see any problem. Whether it's one object mixed down, or 10 objects mixed down, this has nothing to do with the mixer.

The mixer, like all mixers, is track-based. If you're going to send out everything on the track for external editing, then no need for mixing or track effects at that point. If you have effects on that track that has an object that you mixdown, they will be included - probably not a good idea if you are sending the file to an external editor. You do cleaning and add effects to the audio file in the external editor. MEP has limited built-in audio cleaning and effects for objects, which is why one may want to send an object to an external editor - say, for spectral cleaning or more advanced de-noising. Different objects on a track may need different cleaning and effects. Mixer track effects are only to be used for the overall track. I don't see any problem between mixdown objects and track effects. I believe that this is the same process in all editors and DAWs.

For example, in Samplitude, cleaning is done on the audio object, not the track, and effects can be added directly to objects, just like in MEP/VPX. Track effects are added separately and can be done through or accessed by the mixer.

John CB

@browj2

Hi John

. . . . If you're going to send out everything on the track for external editing, then no need for mixing or track effects at that point.. . . .

I presume that is not what you would do if the volume levels are all over the place - correct the levels first then mixdown ie using the functionality that -

. . . . If you have effects on that track that has an object that you mixdown, they will be included - . . . .

John EB

@johnebaker

You are correct, but of course, it would depend on the material. I would usually correct volume levels first before mixing down.

As well, normalize is to be used judiciously and not blindly. I have an example of 4 audio clips of a walk in the forest. There is some fairly loud talking in two of them, fainter in the second, and none in the third. Normalizing puts them at different levels. The one with no talking now has extremely loud ambient noise - they should all be equal. So it may not be a good idea to normalize before mixing down and normalize should be done on the mixed down file.

Ducking should be done afterwards.

Narration, I would probably mix it down and level it in the external editor.

John CB