@Former user

Hi Gid

. . . . they are completely different programs & Vegas has many more features, although I'm sure you'll get a comment firmly defending VPX . . . .

This difference was made given the context of the topic where the comparison of the 2 programs was discussed here.

The requirements in this topic ie 'ProRes HQ or DNxHR HQ, and PCM audio' did not enter into that discussion.

@doug_mccarron

Hi

There was a discussion on Filmhubs requirements in this topic. The salient point is that mp4, h.264 encoded video and AAC audio is fine providing the bitrates are high enough for the resolution you are exporting to, if you do not want to read the whole topic, though you may find it useful to do so, see the last 3 comments on page 2.

HTH

John EB

@johnebaker Yes I read that post as it was happening & decided not to join in because of the ignorant, ill informed, inexperienced, blinkered & biased views in the comments, people shouldn't comment about stuff they're not familiar or experienced with, but from passed experience I know they are pointless arguing with, like talking to a wall.,

One example of a few that wound me up,

 I don't recall having any third party plugins quit working when moving to a new version of VPX. Not so with Vegas. Upgrade to a new version of Vegas and most of your previously obtained plugins no longer work.

BS!, (sorry for the language) but that is utter 🐂💩, I read the Vegas forum & that topic very rarely turns up & is solved fairly quickly, All my plugins transfer over no prob, in fact the majority of my plugins don't work in VPX.

This defines the ignorance of the comments in that post reg Vegas vs VPX,

 My head spins when they talk about tracks for this, tracks for that, composite tracks, train tracks, parents, children. Ouch! A track is a track.

A track is a track in Vegas, but a track can be composited/blended & grouped with other tracks, these are really simple things & aren't hard to learn or comprehend.

@doug_mccarron I put the ProRes I exported earlier, the one that's in the comment above back on the Vegas timeline, I was surprised how well it played & scrubbed compared to the orig much smaller MP4 file, VPX/MS tend to playback MP4 AVC clips better than Vegas, they'll play at a good res whereas Vegas you often have to reduce the preview window to one of the lower settings, but I just put that ProRes on the MS & VPX timeline, both were stuttering, Do you already have ProRes that you can try on your VPX?

@Former user

@johnebaker Yes I read that post as it was happening & decided not to join in because of the ignorant, ill informed, inexperienced, blinkered & biased views in the comments, people shouldn't comment about stuff they're not familiar or experienced with, but from passed experience I know they are pointless arguing with, like talking to a wall.,

Thanks for the insult since the quotes that you mentioned are from me and somewhat taken out of context.

@johnebaker made two links and you have commented on one. In the second one, I did not participate and your quotes are not in that thread. Furthermore, you did participate in that thread.

For the insults:

One example of a few that wound me up,

 I don't recall having any third party plugins quit working when moving to a new version of VPX. Not so with Vegas. Upgrade to a new version of Vegas and most of your previously obtained plugins no longer work.

BS!, (sorry for the language) but that is utter 🐂💩, I read the Vegas forum & that topic very rarely turns up & is solved fairly quickly, All my plugins transfer over no prob, in fact the majority of my plugins don't work in VPX.

You are partially right. I should have been more specific as this was a recurring problem prior to OFX plugins. You have not been involved in Vegas long enough to have seen these. I have been following Vegas posts since before the separate Vegas forum existed. At the beginning, Vegas users were posting here. There are several older threads in which users complained of third party effects purchased with one version not being available in a newer version of Vegas. In particular, in some cases when users asked about the difference between Vegas Edit and Vegas Pro, the answer was third party plugins, but that it may not be worth the difference in price because many of the plugins were linked to the particular version of Vegas. I mentioned that in this thread on the Vegas Forum (the paragraph right after point 24) and you can read last part of the reply from Marco, who somewhat dismissed it as a licensing issue. I did not just make this up! It was not just a licensing issue (you would have had to pay the full price for third party plugins). You can do some searching of the Vegas forum and you'll discover more about the subject, and no, Vegas did not fix these. Nowadays, the OFX effects are no longer linked to the particular version of Vegas so the problem no longer exists...unless you had some quite old third party effects and were affected.

Not quite the same thing, but even Vegas Post has changed over time with Sound Forge Pro being replaced by Sound Forge Audio Studio - a big drop in capability.

With VPX/MEP, we rarely had this problem, as I pointed out. I also pointed out the problem with Mercalli sometimes coming with a time-limit. Third party plugins that came with MEP work in VPX and vice versa.

This defines the ignorance of the comments in that post reg Vegas vs VPX,

 My head spins when they talk about tracks for this, tracks for that, composite tracks, train tracks, parents, children. Ouch! A track is a track.

A track is a track in Vegas, but a track can be composited/blended & grouped with other tracks, these are really simple things & aren't hard to learn or comprehend.

Yes, that is my opinion, and for most of what users do in VPX/MMS, you don't need composite tracks to do it. There is very little that I have seen done with composite tracks in Vegas that cannot be done simply on the timeline the way we do it in VPX/MEP/MMS.

but a track can be composited/blended & grouped with other tracks

My assumption is that this can also be done in VPX using nesting of a Movie as an object. The nested object behaves like a composite track.

Also, there was a thread in which we discussed blending. A user indicated that it could not be done in VPX. I asked for specific examples, provided, and I showed that VPX could indeed do these, he just didn't know how. Yes, Vegas has some neat blending tools but these are special effects that can be done in VPX using third party tools. Even Gary R didn't know what blend mode Divide does. My points have always been that in most cases where Vegas users state that something that can be done in Vegas could not be done in VPX, I like to see if this is true. Usually, it can be done.

Yes, VPX has better compositing tools and blending tools, which I would expect. On the other hand, and as I have pointed out, there are things that VPX does that Vegas Pro does not, the main one being multiple timelines.

All of the above has nothing whatsoever to do with the question asked by @doug_mccarron.

I have always kept away from discussions about Codecs and bit rates which is the subject of this thread. As John EB indicated somewhere, if you need to export for broadcast, go with Vegas. I concur.

John CB

Ok, apparently I stepped into an ongoing discussion. So what I have read

VPX does not export in those formats Filmhub would prefer.

A few more question.

As it is not clear from what I am reading about Vegas Edit, is would it export in the formats Filmhub would prefer?

As they would accept MP4 can you describe where in the export options I would enter the bip rates that Filmhub wants?

As I don't want to re-edit the entire 5 hour long project in Vegas would it work to export out of VPX with the assigned bit rates to an MP4 file, then import it into Vegas and export from there into the formats Filmhub would prefer?

For this project it would be simpler to export to MP4 with the adjusted bit rates that Filmhub prefers. Then I can get Vegas Edit for future projects.

On that subject, as I have Sound Forge and Samplitude X6 Suite I question purchasing the Vegas Pro version as I seem to already have tools for a lot of the audio, though I acknowledge it would be simpler to do audio processing within Vegas Pro, though I would need to relearn a lot. BUT I already have these audio DAWS so I figure I should use them.

Thank you all for your opinions and the discussion, I am learning a lot.

Douglas

As it is not clear from what I am reading about Vegas Edit, is would it export in the formats Filmhub would prefer?

@doug_mccarron Vegas Edit, Vegas Pro & Vegas Post are all the same base program. the only difference with Pro & Post are few extra things,

You asked about ProRes -

They will accept mp4 but would prefer ProRes HQ or DNxHR HQ, and PCM audio.

The ProRes example i showed is from Vegas Pro, but it could've come from V Edit no problem. like i say it's the same program .

If you prefer MP4 this post was about someone wanting to get the bitrate correct for a Filmhub upload.

https://www.magix.info/us/forum/an-error-has-occurred-during-export-with-an-external-video-codec--1307446/

Thank you for your assistance

you don't need composite tracks to do it. There is very little that I have seen done with composite tracks in Vegas that cannot be done simply on the timeline the way we do it in VPX/MEP/MMS.

We're getting away from Doug's original question but masking is one situation where composite tracks are useful. Where there are multiple areas that need to be accurately masked then creating a png mask to use on a mask composite track is the best way, in my opinion, to achieve it. Below is a mask I created a few years ago. The background is actually transparent but I made it blue here so you can see the mask areas.

I'm interested to know how masking many small areas like this can be achieved in VPX/MEP/MMS.

@doug_mccarron

In particular, from here on:

https://www.magix.info/us/forum/an-error-has-occurred-during-export-with-an-external-video-codec--1307446/?page=2#ca1817824

(as pointed out by JohnEB above).

@ericlnz

Hi Eric,

Good question! Could you please start a new thread. I would like to see how you made the mask and for which purpose, then we can look at different ways to do it in VPX/MEP/MMS. Also, indicate if you are using a static or animated mask.

John CB

Ok I think my questions have been answered. Interesting seeing where this is morphing to.

Good question! Could you please start a new thread

@browj2 Will do, but may take a few days as need to find time to dig out the material.

@Former user

@johnebaker Yes I read that post as it was happening & decided not to join in because of the ignorant, ill informed, inexperienced, blinkered & biased views in the comments, people shouldn't comment about stuff they're not familiar or experienced with, but from passed experience I know they are pointless arguing with, like talking to a wall.,

Thanks for the insult since the quotes that you mentioned are from me and somewhat taken out of context.

@johnebaker made two links and you have commented on one. In the second one, I did not participate and your quotes are not in that thread. Furthermore, you did participate in that thread.

Why bring up the second link? John EB tagged that second half of his comment to the OP, I never said anything about that, so the above comment is a pointless comment,

For the insults:

One example of a few that wound me up,

 I don't recall having any third party plugins quit working when moving to a new version of VPX. Not so with Vegas. Upgrade to a new version of Vegas and most of your previously obtained plugins no longer work.

BS!, (sorry for the language) but that is utter 🐂💩, I read the Vegas forum & that topic very rarely turns up & is solved fairly quickly, All my plugins transfer over no prob, in fact the majority of my plugins don't work in VPX.

You are partially right. I should have been more specific as this was a recurring problem prior to OFX plugins. You have not been involved in Vegas long enough to have seen these. I have been following Vegas posts since before the separate Vegas forum existed. At the beginning, Vegas users were posting here. There are several older threads in which users complained of third party effects purchased with one version not being available in a newer version of Vegas. In particular, in some cases when users asked about the difference between Vegas Edit and Vegas Pro, the answer was third party plugins, but that it may not be worth the difference in price because many of the plugins were linked to the particular version of Vegas. I mentioned that in this thread on the Vegas Forum (the paragraph right after point 24) and you can read last part of the reply from Marco, who somewhat dismissed it as a licensing issue. I did not just make this up! It was not just a licensing issue (you would have had to pay the full price for third party plugins). You can do some searching of the Vegas forum and you'll discover more about the subject, and no, Vegas did not fix these. Nowadays, the OFX effects are no longer linked to the particular version of Vegas so the problem no longer exists...unless you had some quite old third party effects and were affected.

Not quite the same thing, but even Vegas Post has changed over time with Sound Forge Pro being replaced by Sound Forge Audio Studio - a big drop in capability.

With VPX/MEP, we rarely had this problem, as I pointed out. I also pointed out the problem with Mercalli sometimes coming with a time-limit. Third party plugins that came with MEP work in VPX and vice versa.

The long comment above talks about old software, why mention it in a new comment in that other thread that i quoted you from - "Upgrade to a new version of Vegas and most of your previously obtained plugins no longer work" ? that's not true but even if this was partially true in the past it's not true now as you have mentioned it's an old problem.

In that link above 'this thread ' the comment from 2019 you mentioned "I have seen many comments on this forum about difficulties with some third party plugins", both replies you got dismissed your claim,

This defines the ignorance of the comments in that post reg Vegas vs VPX,

 My head spins when they talk about tracks for this, tracks for that, composite tracks, train tracks, parents, children. Ouch! A track is a track.

A track is a track in Vegas, but a track can be composited/blended & grouped with other tracks, these are really simple things & aren't hard to learn or comprehend.

Yes, that is my opinion, and for most of what users do in VPX/MMS, you don't need composite tracks to do it. There is very little that I have seen done with composite tracks in Vegas that cannot be done simply on the timeline the way we do it in VPX/MEP/MMS.

but a track can be composited/blended & grouped with other tracks

My assumption is that this can also be done in VPX using nesting of a Movie as an object. The nested object behaves like a composite track.

Also, there was a thread in which we discussed blending. A user indicated that it could not be done in VPX. I asked for specific examples, provided, and I showed that VPX could indeed do these, he just didn't know how. Yes, Vegas has some neat blending tools but these are special effects that can be done in VPX using third party tools. Even Gary R didn't know what blend mode Divide does. My points have always been that in most cases where Vegas users state that something that can be done in Vegas could not be done in VPX, I like to see if this is true. Usually, it can be done.

Yes, VPX has better compositing tools and blending tools, which I would expect. On the other hand, and as I have pointed out, there are things that VPX does that Vegas Pro does not, the main one being multiple timelines.

' The nested object behaves like a composite track.' - Wrong.

I remember the post about compositing, you acknowledged you didn't know anything about it or the point of it, I provided the video of Gary from Vegas & someone else posted a list of videos about all the compositing modes, so don't say it's the same as nesting when you don't actually know,

I have no prob with someone/you promoting software by pointing out it's positives, but I can't sit back & read some of the things you mention, apparent negatives in other programs that i know are not true, in the last comment above you say 'My assumption', that indicates you're literally making an assumption, therefore what you write is not fully factual, if you don't know 100% about something don't mention it, ,

This whole conversation started with the OP's comment - 'I have asked before if there is a reason to switch and the general consensus was they are so similar there is no reason' , this is wrong & you know it, but for someone to come to that conclusion means they have been misinformed or at least mislead, I looked through the OP's previous posts & you @browj2 are the main culprit for promoting VPX saying it will do all Vegas does & it'll do it better.

I picked on this because this isn't the first time, a little while ago you got a flea in your ear about Mocha, claiming Zara was better, in that post I did mention Mocha but I also said it was expensive & it was me who suggested Zara to the OP , I also mentioned you as someone who could help, but for whatever reason you lost it & went on a rant comparing Zara to Mocha, yet you knew/know absolutely 0 about Mocha, I said then don't do it & I'll say it again don't do it, I may not have had Vegas for as long as you (I deleted my Vegas forum account & restarted it, that's why it reads member since 2022) but your comments showing lack of knowledge about tracks & compositing leads me to believe I know as much if not more about Vegas than you, I will pull you up if I know something you say isn't true, you are misleading people who don't know better,

------------

It'll be interesting the last comments about masking with ericinz, ignoring the composite part of that topic MS & VPX have no ability to create intricate personalized masks, the masks used are created in an external program or are generated from an image with no way to draw on or adjust the detail.

@doug_mccarron If Vegas' built-in output formats don't satisfy you, you can always install Vegas' free plugin Voukoder, which basically introduces FFmpeg's export format library to Vegas. Prores is at 05:04 :

@Former user

Regrettably, the discussion in this otherwise very interesting thread seems to have become a little "heated", almost personal.

I fully accept you may disagree with what others, notably @browj2 have written, and you are wholly entitled to express that disagreement, but please be considerate and ensure your language is not, in any way, discourteous.

Thank you.

Jeff
Forum Moderator

BS!, (sorry for the language) but that is utter 🐂💩

@emmrecs I was as courteous as i could, 'ignorant, ill informed, inexperienced, blinkered & biased' are descriptions of how their comments appear, statements that i know aren't true, there is no name calling, what i wrote is simply pointing out the facts & I apologised in the comment I've quoted above but sometimes some things have to be said,

'I fully accept you may disagree with what others' I'm glad that you appreciate that, it's funny tho how I get warned for mentioning this, for calling it out, but there's never a mention about the one making false or uneducated statements that may mislead others,

@Former user

'ignorant, ill informed, inexperienced, blinkered & biased' are descriptions of how their comments appear

That is clearly how they appear to you but others may disagree!

Unfortunately, by quoting your own earlier comment at the very start of your post above, you are simply "adding fuel to the fire"!

Despite the verbal hostility being shown at the moment I do not wish to close this thread since @doug_mccarron was asking a very pertinent and relevant question and has every right to expect an "answer". However, such answers should always be expressed in language which strictly adheres to Community rule #1. If this rule is not followed I have no option but to close the thread and consider whether any perpetrator of unacceptable behaviour towards others should have their access suspended, either temporarily or permanently.

Jeff
Forum Moderator

@doug_mccarron

Hi Doug,

What was your solution?

@ericlnz

Hi Eric,

I await your new post (in a couple of days).

@Former user

Hi Gid,

Context is important. I look at can it be done using the tools that we have, meaning MMS or VPX? How? If not, with what and how, and what are the alternatives and appropriate alternatives? This is, afterall, a forum for MMS/VPX.

Xara is spelled with an "X" not a "Z." As I indicated, Xara can do rotoscoping - create static and animated masks and images (and it contains a major bug). It is mainly a very good vector drawing program with photo editing capabilities and for most users, could be a good alternative, more appropriate and less costly than getting Mocha for a one-off or occasional use - versatility. Xara integrates (with a bug) with MMS/VPX. XAR objects go on the timeline.

As for my comment about composite tracks and using nesting in VPX, we can take up the details in another thread. This requires VPX as it cannot be done in MMS. I have always maintained that Vegas has much better compositing features, but for most uses and users of MMS/VPX, what can be done in MMS/VPX is sufficient. It's usually just a question of knowing how to do it.

Let's leave it there.

John CB

Well I don't know that I have a solution which is why I asked the question. I suppose for now that the project is complete in VPX and as Filmhub will grudgingly accept MP4 I guess the next step is to try to understand the bit rate adjustments and then figure out how to set them. I am not quite sure yet after reading the linked posting how to do it but I will make a short test video and then fuddle around and see if I can do it.

Really annoying that Magix has a flagship editor (at least it advertises it self a professional broadcast quality) that I have invested a lot of money in over the years only to find out there is another system that for some reason is better for what I need and would have been better to buy. Feels like I was mislead.

@doug_mccarron

Doug, that's pretty unfair. You were not to know, all those years ago, that filmhub needs a certain video format that Magix doesn't do. Of course, if you knew that filmhub required ProRes back then, then Magix obviously wasn't the correct choice.

As you will (or have) read on that other thread, filmhub will take MP4s, and if you read my two posts (the last ones in that thread) I show you the settings you need to achieve a compliant MP4 for filmhub.

Let us know if you have any trouble and we'll gladly provide more help. 👍

Well it was known a couple years ago, when I upgraded. Could have got Vegas. Anyway, I read through all that, I just don't know that I comprehend it, but I will try.

@doug_mccarron

Hi Doug.

Sorry I'm late to the party.

I have to agree with Al up to a point but you started the topic and included the following line.

I am a film maker not a video software expert.

Unfortunately if you are a one man band film maker you may have to become both.

Have you looked at any of the videos on YouTube from people who do use filmhub and see their list of complaints about the platform?

Even if you get the bit rate correct there is a whole host of other requirements and hoops to jump through and what can be accepted today may in eighteen months be rejected and asked to be resubmitted to new specifications.

You may have to give us your computer specs if you decide to go the Vegas Pro-res route as the required Apple ProRes 422 & 422 HQ files are huge. No tweeking required (it's not possible using Pro-ress 422: as explained on filmhub) to get a huge bit rate. Normally I would steer clear of Pro-res but I did a five minute export at 4K.

Here is the MediaInfo data I got from exporting to Pro-res 422: HQ at 25fps in 4K

General
Complete name                            : G:\Collections team at the Dockyard.2023 partial.mov
Format                                   : QuickTime
Format/Info                              : Original Apple specifications
File size                                : 17.5 GiB
Duration                                 : 3 min 1 s
Overall bit rate mode                    : Constant
Overall bit rate                         : 831 Mb/s
Encoded date                             : UTC 2023-05-08 16:12:14
Tagged date                              : UTC 2023-05-08 16:12:14
Writing library                          : Apple QuickTime

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : ProRes
Format version                           : Version 0
Format profile                           : 422 HQ
Codec ID                                 : apch
Duration                                 : 3 min 1 s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 829 Mb/s ----------------------------------------------------
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 25.000 FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:2
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 3.998
Stream size                              : 17.5 GiB (100%)
Writing library                          : magx
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2023-05-08 16:12:14
Tagged date                              : UTC 2023-05-08 16:12:14
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Big / Signed
Codec ID                                 : twos
Duration                                 : 3 min 1 s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 536 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Stream size                              : 33.2 MiB (0%)
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2023-05-08 16:12:14
Tagged date                              : UTC 2023-05-08 16:12:14

So you may have to calculate how large a file is going to be if you are not to go over filmhubs 1TB limit.

Obviously if you are shooting at 24fps at 1080 x 1920 then the files will be somewhat smaller.

I'll be honest and say my machine struggles to play such files back smoothly.

Just look at my poor processor.

As for rendering the files in Vegas, it will take considerably longer than making an MP4 in VPX.

Not to mention the transfer speeds of the drives.

Taking a file and rendering it to an MP4 in VPX and then converting it to a Po-res file in Vegas will not improve quality but produce a file with lots of bits that are just blank within the file. Basically padding in among the actual visual and audio data. Not to mention the very slight degradation from producing a copy of a previous render. (It will be hard to detect any degradation but may cause some banding in large graduated colour areas such as a blue sky or an increase in blockiness in shadow areas or background detail may suffer slightly if a shallow focus is being used.

If you want to use VPX to export MP4 files with a high bit rate you can try my preferred export settings which will give you the following export file bit rate.

General
Complete name                            : J:\Medway Gaming and Creative Festival 2022 1080p.mp4
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : Base Media
Codec ID                                 : isom (isom/avc1)
File size                                : 9.97 GiB
Duration                                 : 13 min 36 s
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 105 Mb/s ------------------------------------------------------------
Encoded date                             : UTC 2022-07-24 03:22:56
Tagged date                              : UTC 2022-07-24 03:22:56

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : High@L5.2
Format settings                          : CABAC / 3 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames        : 3 frames
Format settings, GOP                     : N=1
Codec ID                                 : avc1
Codec ID/Info                            : Advanced Video Coding
Duration                                 : 13 min 36 s
Bit rate                                 : 105 Mb/s----------------------------------------------------
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 50.000 FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 1.010
Stream size                              : 9.95 GiB (100%)
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2022-07-24 03:22:56
Tagged date                              : UTC 2022-07-24 03:22:56
Codec configuration box                  : avcC

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : AAC LC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Audio Codec Low Complexity
Codec ID                                 : mp4a-40-2
Duration                                 : 13 min 35 s
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 192 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Channel layout                           : L R
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 46.875 FPS (1024 SPF)
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Stream size                              : 19.0 MiB (0%)
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2022-07-24 03:22:56
Tagged date                              : UTC 2022-07-24 03:22:56

Which also happens to be a constant bit rate export which I use for uploading to YouTube.

Obviously the Group of Pictures number (GOP) should equal or be half that of the frame rate. The rest can be copied and used.

If that fails due to not being a large enough bit rate then use the UHD 4K settings for 50fps and change the resolution and required frame in the export box manually.

If that then fails for that reason the you will have to try again using Vegas from scratch I fear as I really suspect transferring an MP4 file from VPX to Vegas may also get rejected.

My personal view is trying to get a catalogue of work onto filmhub will be a full time job in itself.

Ray.