@Kevin-Tam

Hi Kevin.

I personally have never used the Chroma Key effect and I started with the 2018 version of MEP at which time there were few complaints about MEP or VPX's Chroma key effect. However, with more recent versions of both programs the complaints increased. It was found that better lighting and care not to produce any variation of green shade on the screen by ensuring no shadows fell on it, either by standing further away from the green screen or better or additional lighting alleviated those problems.

It was felt in general that the supplied newer version of the Chroma Key effect was inferior.

When I think it was VPX 14 came out (could have been 13 but I don't think so) VPX included the third party NEW Blue Total Effects (lifetime usage) That has New Blue Chrome Key Pro which is much better but was excluded from the Humble Bundle offer. (See the terms and conditions on the humblebundle website.)

I did mention that in our previous discussion but the mention of green screen usage never came up in that conversation and you said you only did basic editing I think.

That set of effects is no longer offered but has been replaced with Boris FX - BCC Chroma Key Studio (all-in-one keying suite)

Which is the latest intensive it would seem to upgrade.

At various points during any of the Magix promotions they offer various third party effects to entice regular users to upgrade and this seems to be the latest. Why the newer version of the in house Chroma key is worse than the old one or why it has been replaced I really don't know but if I had to guess it could be that the old one could only handle HD content and that the newer effects also have to handle 8K.

Although the New Blue Total Effects bundle is no longer available as a free third party plugin as a Magix supplied offer, the individual Chroma Key Pro is still available to buy from New Blue. These and Boris Effects plugins are normally very expensive.

Again, why all of this happens the way it does, I have no idea but suspect it has a lot to do with generating income so the company can afford to pay it's employees or in fact to keep going as a company. Or it may have a lot to do with the ever changing face of operating systems and newer component compatibility. Either way, it's never ending and the price of participation.

If it's any consolation it doesn't make me that happy either.

Ray.

@Kevin-Tam @johnebaker

I will bow to John's superior knowledge on this as I said I'm not a green screen user. My comments are based on other users past complaints and solutions found at the time.

Ray.

Thanks again for your help!

@CubeAce I didn't mention what "level" of editing I did but if green screen is more than basic, I guess I am intermediate. As you can tell, I've been experimenting with a MEP2014 project in VPX14 and that's how I ran across this issue with the green screen. I've also noticed that the text elements were not placed correctly when the MEP2014 project was loaded in VPX14.
Given that I'm led to believe that MEP2023 is simply is cut down version of VPX14, there's no point me installing MEP2023 to see if that renders the MEP2014 project better?
While it is true that 2014 is a long time ago, it is a slight disappointment that there isn't full backwards compatibility - this would be of particular issue for loyal users who have built a large body of work over the years.

@johnebaker I would have thought that the Chroma Key algorithm in VPX14 would be much better (as you indicated) but if it is, I don't think I'm able to use it as well (the MEP2014 worked "out of the box" for me PS: it also had antispill - does that mean I didn't have the standard Chroma Key? It was a long time ago I got it, I do remember some proDAD add-on coming with it...).
I think I've tried all that you mentioned (including in the links) but can't get much better than what I got with selecting a large part of the green screen using "Color" mode - there's still some green around the foreground human subject.
Perhaps my workflow needs to be anything green screen gets done in my old machine with MEP2014 then transferred for use in VPX2014 (I'm assuming everything else works as well/better than MEP2014 otherwise?) If I did indeed get a better add-on Chroma Key back in 2014, is there a way of installing it into VPX14?

@Kevin-Tam

Hi Kevin.

While I don't use green screen I do understand the associated problems with using it. I see it applied professionally regularly where I volunteer.

I would say it is not beginner stuff if done correctly although the example above that I saw implemented two weeks ago was probably extreme 🤣😉.

Sadly I think the idea of backwards or complete forwards compatibility may be a thing of the past in the digital age. This is why I urged you to change a project name when saving an old project in a new editor. Then you still have the old project data file to use in the old program. None of my older audio or photo editing projects are backwards/forwards compatible either and I don't use Magix software for either of those processes.

Magix have often given half hearted warnings reminding people to finish any current project before downloading the new versions. But not always. It may not be a fault with MEP/ VPX but a change in the way certain versions of Direct X work. One such instance is in newer versions of Direct X 2D graphics processing is now handled within the 3D graphics section of Direct X. You are now using an operating system newer than you did with MEP 2014 which was based around an earlier version of Direct X. There are most probably compatibility issues with that plugin. I don't know for certain that is the case as I'm not a programmer but we see older versions of the program not working on newer operating systems and vice versa.

So you can try installing it but I would guess it will probably be ignored by the program or not work or cause some sort of problem. On that I'm not certain and willing to be wrong if anyone else knows better.

These plugins are normally changed of a reason.

Generally though things to look out for when green screening.

Fringing is normally caused by light spillage on the object getting a slight green cast from reflected light off the green screen or an uneven green background caused by lighting or bumps/creases in the green screen or shadows cast onto the green screen by the object/person being too close to the green screen or not enough/even lighting applied onto the green screen. Slow frame rates with rapid movement can also cause problems as what should be a sharp edge isn't due to the relative long exposure of each frame causing things like fingers and hair to blur. Wherever there is blur there is also an amount of background bleed.

If you wish you could upload a short clip to Google drive or Dropbox to see if anyone here can come up with settings or a workflow that would work.

Ray.

@Kevin-Tam

Hi

. . . . the MEP2014 worked "out of the box" for me PS: it also had antispill - does that mean I didn't have the standard Chroma Key . . . .

Not unless you had a third party effect installed. If not and you used the standard built in Chromakey effect then it did not have the Antispill control - it was not added to the effect until 2019.

Added image:

What is the version number of the MEP 2014 if it is still installed on the old PC?

. . . . there's still some green around the foreground human subject . . . .

Can you upload As @CubeAce has requested, can you upload a sample clip, assuming it is not confidential, for us to test?

John EB

@CubeAce - that's some extreme green screening going on there 😲
Yes, thanks for the advice re: keep the old set up/projects. I guess I'll have to stick to using the old set up with the prior projects then*. Given what you wrote, MEP2023 will have the same issues as VPX14 (Chromakey, title text out of place)? Otherwise, any other projects done in VPX from now on will at least be ok in VPX (for hopefully a few years anyway).
Thanks for your pointers re: green screening - yes, my green screen wasn't the best set up but I guess I "lucked out" with a "good old" algorithm and it worked. Had I done that with VPX14's algorithm, I might have thought it something I can't really do without exorbitant effort and missed out on all sorts of creative possibilities.

@johnebaker - here's a screen shot of my Chroma Key in MEP2014 using "Color" mode...

....as far as I can tell, I didn't install anything related to that and looking around in my subdirectory, I can't see any plugins that have a name that obviously mentions a chromakey plugin.
My old set up is as follows....

Magix Movie Edit Pro 2014, Version 13.0.2.8 (UDC2)
Processor    Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-8550U CPU @ 1.80GHz   1.99 GHz
Installed RAM    16.0 GB (15.9 GB usable)
System type    64-bit operating system, x64-based processor
Pen and touch    Pen and touch support with 10 touch points
Intel UDH Graphics 620
Edition    Windows 10 Pro
Version    22H2
OS build    19045.3324
Experience    Windows Feature Experience Pack 1000.19041.1000.0

As for VPX itself - the experience looks pretty much the same, which is good and bad - I was hoping by now that the timeline's side scroll would have been refined to be less jerky and they would have added 2-finger touchpad side movements for it (as well as similar dragging for other parts of the UI that don't all fit within the screen real estate) - that would have been a much nicer and more efficient workflow experience. I did however stumble across a little hack to increase the GUI space on the screen and escape out of that with F8, so that was nice.

As for the Chromakey performance difference, here it is (both were using the "Color" mode)...

(hopefully you guys can see zoom in on it ok - at least in this forum's editor, it looks like they shrunk it)

*Complaint corner: I had this experience with Prezi - and excellent idea/concept but when they changed their underlying tech (for understandable reasons), prior projects were no longer compatible and the best response they gave me is, "you can pay someone to convert your old projects". Thanks - way to treat the early adopters who got you off the ground as a small business. I decided to go off an implement my own solution based on more open standards.

@Kevin-Tam

Hi Kevin.

The site is a major location for TV series and Feature Film shooting as well as a museum. We often get green screens up to 60-80 feet high to obscure/alter the backgrounds to become other location or time period correct. Crews can be there for months or just a couple of days. Sometimes we get as many as three production companies at once spread over the eighty four acre site. They have built whole towns or streets here or used the existing buildings, ships, etc.

The right hand image is the putting up of the set for the left hand image. You can see a green screen frame being erected on a lifter in the background.

Direct X 12.1 has earlier versions of Direct X within it so if you are able to successfully get MEP 2014 running within Win 10 then it can take advantage of the older Direct X version. Whether that is possible or not I don't know. John EB or another member may know.

To my eye it looks like the 2014 version has a courser feather feature which may not work as well at 4K and above (If MEP 2014 was ever 4K capable) but may work better with lower resolutions. What is the resolution of the video footage?

It is possible to view images posted to the site at full resolution by clicking on the image and then on the opened image, right click the image and then chose Open image in new tab (or window will work). Then left clicking on that image to increase its size.

You could try in VPX 14's program settings to change the Import/processing/export options to CPU and then exporting just that section to see if it makes a difference using software only rather than using any hardware acceleration. It will be slower to render but I wonder if relying on the software alone will give a better result.

Ray.

@CubeAce - looks like you live in an interesting part of the world.

Thanks for the pointer re: program settings > import/processing/export options - I noticed it was all set to Intel UHD. I've tried using CPU, Intel UHD, nvidia, Microsoft warp and even switching the "Video mode" to a different renderer - No difference, still green screen artefact (most evident around the cheek area).

Double checking: given their relationship, MEP2023 will have the same issues as VPX14? If so, I wonder if I can install MEP2014 on the same machine as VPX14 and use the former for green screen work? ie: render out green screen stuff on MEP2014 to be used in VPX2014. It would be terrible to lose some of my previous work if/when my old laptop dies/is passed on.

Source video captured on Samsung s10e at 1920x1080 then rendered out to a 1280 x 720 final video (on a 3840 x 2160 monitor, in case that matters).

@Kevin-Tam

Hi Kevin. I think @johnebaker or @AAProds may be better placed to say whether you can get the MEP 2014 version to run or not. That version was before my time and I don't have a copy to check with.

What I do find odd is the laptop is not using the nvidia 3080 in the program settings as a default, or indeed at all by the sound of it. Normally it's the Intel GPU that is hidden or not connected.

Personally I think if you try to look at a 1280 x 720 video, full screen on a 4K monitor, the result is not going to look good at a normal viewing distance for the monitor size. Any reason for downscaling 1920 x 1080 to 1280 x 720?

I'm in the Sunny South East. Kent. Sweating all my bits off at present. I've had a hard 7 hours photography shoot today. Rinse, repeat tomorrow for eight hours, collapse completely Monday.

I've copied John and Al into this reply in the hope one of them knows the answer to your MEP 2014 question.

Now I've just got to go and edit some images.

I'll have a look back tomorrow evening.

Ray.

@Kevin-Tam @CubeAce

Sorry Kev, I don't have a copy of MEP 2014 to try.

@CubeAce Thanks for your thoughts, especially after a long day! As for sweating...well, I'm in Australia - heat is relative I guess ;-)
I outputted a lower resolution video because my old laptop is lower spec, had less HDD space and it was "good enough" (only YouTube/local student audience). Yes, it was interesting that VPX defaulted to the Intel UHD but I do remember someone mentioned to look out for that, so thanks for help me make the upgrade.

@CubeAce @AAProds - given my priorities are the get green screen working properly and having access to my prior projects, I might proceed this way...
1) Install MEP2023 on my new laptop and try my MEP2014 projects on it.
2) If MEP2023 does the green screen and titles just as badly as VPX14 on my MEP2014 projects (probably given they are siblings), I'll try installing MEP2014 on my new machine (hopefully I can have concurrent differing version MEPs).
3) If MEP2014 works as before, I'll stick with that for green screens and old projects. If not, it has something to do with my new laptop's OS &/or drivers and I'll have to stick with the old laptop for those particular tasks.

Thanks!

An update, incase anyone wants to know...

Unsurprisingly, MEP2023 is equally as bad as VPX14 at rendering the MEP2014 project.

I tried installing MEP2014 on my new machine but realised I only archived the downloader, not the program itself - the downloader kept on crashing leaving me to wonder if it was because the program was no longer online. I reached out to Magix and they confirmed that is the case. Unless I can get the program in another way (from Magix or someone else), it looks like I'm stuck the MEP2014 on my old computer and stuck altogether if and when my old computer dies. I must say, that's a disappointing (and avoidable) possibility 😔
If Magix can help me get MEP2014 going again, this is a compromise but one I'm ok to work with. If they can't, it'll have me wondering whether I should continue to use their products - a user cannot help having made something back in 2014 but a vendor can make one's 2023 product render it as it did with its 2014 version. 2023 will eventually be 2032.

@Kevin-Tam

Hi Kevin.

When you registered the new programs was your old program still visible in your Magix Account?

My 2018 version still shows as able to download.

If your 2014 version is there it should show under 'my products'.

Whenever you download a program from Magix you get the choice of downloading a complete copy to another location that can be transferred and used to reload the program or transfer it to another computer. But there could still be compatibility issues as I think your old program was designed to run on Windows 7 / 8.1.

It would still be very useful to have a video clip to try. Some of us have third party Chroma Key plugins we could try it on to see if the clips themselves have any problems or get the same results or indeed improvements. That at least would point to a change in the Magix Chroma Key plugin whereas if similar results are obtained by other Chroma Key plugins it could point to how Direct X has changed the way it works. @Former user has probably the best suite of modern plugins available today, as well as another program to test it on and if he can't get it to work then you will know if switching to another product would help or not.

If you don't feel like sharing one made for a video would it be possible to create a new one?

Ray.

@CubeAce

Ray, I've just checked my account and yes, MEP 2014 is listed and I can download the download manager, but it closes almost immediately when it tries to start downloading the main program. I therefore conclude that the main installation file isn't available.

@AAProds

Hi Al.

I wonder if it's that or when the internet protocols changed the downloaders for earlier products would not longer work? Did you try the right click 'download as administrator'?

I suppose that is why a physical disc can also be ordered when buying. (Or at least it could be, I haven't checked lately).

The problem with lifetime warranties is it is the lifetime of the product, not the human, so when the operating system it was designed for is no longer supported the effective lifespan of any program designed to run on that operating system is effectively cut off. Developers are not going to go back and make it compatible with a new operating system. That may not even be desirable let alone possible.

I had the same problems with my Audio DAW. When the operating systems went from 32 bit to 64 bit, none of the audio drivers could be implemented either for the program or my sound cards. There will be no support at all for 32 bit in Windows 12.

When the internet protocols changed I had a lot of trouble updating my security dongle for Cubase to use on the newer versions of the program I bought. Even on Windows 10 it took ages to get the program to run across two screens. Trying to get old programs to run on newer hardware and operating systems is not easy if indeed possible. My ageing copy of Photoshop can't open my newer cameras raw files. I have to open them in another program and transfer them to Photoshop as 16 bit tiff files if I wish to work on them in Photoshop. Luckily that is very rare I need to.

As for opening an old project in my DAW. Not worth the effort. MIDI timing is well out of whack, velocity and other inputs are not read correctly and it can't handle 64bit wav files.

Ray.

@AAProds

I just remembered. My copy of Cubase can only use one CPU core. So very limited in use once I get past about eight audio tracks.

@CubeAce - thanks again for your thoughts! 
Good pointer re: Magix Account - yes, 2014 in my account but again, it is only the downloader and as @AAprods has come to the same conclusion, I believe they no longer have the installation file available. I have asked Magix if they have it in an archive somewhere or can point me somewhere else that does. 
Thanks for the offer to check the Chroma Key - I'm not near a sample file at the moment but will take you up on the kind offer when I am. But this isn't just a Chroma Key issue (fixable with a thrid party one I suppose) but there's a ton of titles and associated animations in the MEP2014 files that will have to be reworked if and when I need to revisit them should there not be a accesible program which can render them properly.

Lesson learnt: always keep the downloaded program, not just the downloader (hopefully I won't run into issues with registering the serial number though).
I understand all the technical reasons mentioned for this situation but it still puzzles me that backward compatibility isn't there or at least, some kind of conversion tool for it (at least for the simple geometry of titles and animations). As said, 2023 will become 2032 eventually - does have to be a given that this needs to happen again?

My ageing copy of Photoshop can't open my newer cameras raw files. I have to open them in another program and transfer them to Photoshop as 16 bit tiff files if I wish to work on them in Photoshop. Luckily that is very rare I need to.

@CubeAce Hi, would you share one of those newer cameras raw files, I'm just curious as to what GIMP makes of them? It'll open my DNG files.

@Kevin-Tam

Hi Kevin.

Titling options and the animations would have been exclusively a part of Magix or I have noticed some of the animations that are currently no longer in the program are still available at their associated site 'Producer Planet' so may be available there for a small fee but not available in other programs as such. Some older stuff such as the animations may have used 32 bit code and no longer useable with the newer Infusion engine. This again may have to be a question for Magix. It could well be a licencing issue as well. If it was the property of Producer Planet then it is possible Magix paid for each copy under a special licence that they either no longer pay or more probably changed which of Producer Planet's animations they supplied in different versions. Certainly I noticed some of the animated texts stop working on my machine a while back but now I just tend to make my own.

Backwards compatibility issues have been a part of life with all my long term software packages, not just Magix products. Photo products less so and audio products slightly less than that due to each being less complicated than the other in that order.

It is easy to blame the product for user issues and needs but remember the products have to evolve as newer components no longer work the old way they did. Each new movie capable stills camera, smart phone, dedicated video camera that comes out often employs new codecs that may be proprietary to that manufacturer such as iPhones create. There are more 8K capable smart phones in use than dedicated 8K video cameras. These are in constant new release cycles and early adaptors of such tech often have to wait for photo or video editing packages to catch up.

We have gone through some computer changes already. Old internet protocols no longer work in web browsers. Most 32 bit bits of code are slowly being replaced with 64 bit coding. Advantages are larger files and file names can be used. Larger memory use is no longer limited to 4GBs. Downsides are 32 bit code still needs the corresponding bit of the operating system to be read. This is crippling to modern computers, slowing down certain processes that would be better addresses by creating new 64 bit code. Problem is, then older programs and their associated plugins can no longer be used.

Some older proprietary still image codecs already can't be read by modern hardware. Adobe has produced a DNG file convertor for that purpose. Downside is it can't read all of the files encoded data and any picture control information such as amounts of colour or sharpening applied in the camera is no longer read.

This is one of the many problems of living in a digital age. The only solution is to have an older machine with the operating system / appropriate software running on it and hope it keeps going. Keep older copies of original files around. There are convertors out there that can convert them if needed to a newer more compatible file type but probably at a cost.

We know all data storage deteriorates with age and use. Whether it is shellac, vinyl, magnetic tape, optical disk or solid state memory. Transferring such data over time has has often been difficult and quality loss between transfers a constant problem.

The idea that when something is transferred to a digital format that it's data remains the same forever I think is one of the most misunderstood concepts of digital storage. It is true all the time a format is supported. Lose that support and the whole process has to be started all over again.

It has always been thus, digital or not. It's just the pace of change quickens with each passing generation.

Ray.

@Former user

Hi Gid.

DNG or Digital NeGative is the open source raw file format. Their DNG convertor package is also available for download for anybody to use if their photo editing package can't cope with an unsupported file format. RAW was not always encoded. Embedding code that could only be read into the raw file format by proprietary software was first done by Nikon as a means for them to keep some secrets about their camera sensors away from competing camera manufacturers.

The newer version of Photoshop always updates their camera model support as time progresses but as most of us know that is based on a subscription model.

Sure, I'll PM you later (after I've slept) with a link to a file. I would think Gimp should open it as the camera is not that new, it's just newer than my copy of CS6.

Ray.

Thanks again for your thoughts!

Here's a sample green screen video....

....I know, the screen could be better but MEP2014's Chromakey treatment of it works....

@johnebaker - you mentioned that MEP2014's included Chromakey shouldn't have antispill. If so, how do I go about working out what Chromakey I do have as I have antispill? I can't obviously find an extra plugin (would be nice if I can just move it over but there might be a 32bit vs 64bit issue here).

@CubeAce - thanks again for your thorough comment. I didn't use any extra plugin's etc for the title animations. They were simply text, font, keyframed movements ie: your point about compatibilities being affected by 3rd parties is true but I didn't use any, so I believe these are simple geometric translations and therefore, really only subject to internal software factors - hence my disappointment that they didn't render accurately in either VPX14 or MEP2023. Happy to be correct if that's not the case. 
I'm still awaiting Magix's 2nd reply.

If I can't get MEP2014 installed on my new computer, I wonder if a virtual machine instance of it might be the way to go? (might work faster than on my old computer too).

@Kevin-Tam

MEP 2016 works fine Windows 10 (and I assume 11), so I suspect that MEP 2014 would do the same.

The challenge for you is to get the full installation file.