Phew, am I glad that's sorted; I felt it was becoming a little unpleasant reading.

I'm sure that Magix has hidden some other little anomaly for someone to find but remember the (pseudo) Latin phrase "Illegitimi non carborundum" and it'll get sorted 🤓

AndyW

@AAProds @browj2

Thank you both for clarifying what "Range" meant in this situation. Interestingly, having the photos on Track 2, the change in photo length works as one would expect; no impact to other tracks. Although not visually indicated, I now realise that tracks 1 and 5 are special tracks within MMS/VPX - similar to Videostudio which I have been a long time user. The difference is that Videostudio specifically labels Track 1 as the main video track as compared to overlay tracks and other specific tracks reserved for titles and sound. While some users like this structure and is very helpful for beginners, advanced users may find this structured approach limiting. And I would suggest this is the case here. As a new user to VPX/MMS, I initially thought all tracks were identical. Certainly there is no indication in the project window to indicate that these tracks are different and herein lies the confusion.  Regardless, using the current system, there are workarounds suggested, now that we know objects on Track 1 may not act as we expect. Inconvenient - maybe; show stopper - no.

So based on the responses to @AAProds query, I learned 3 workflows to deal with this issue;

1. Always keep the main music on Track 5 (somewhat limiting)
2. Re-adjust the music tracks after changing the photos length (a bit of a pain)
3. Temporarily insert a track above Track 1 and make the required photo length adjustments before deleting the empty track. (additional steps for a simple change)

@AAProds and @Gid argue that the features related to Track 1 are confusing in terms of logical expectation while @browj2 argues that the Track 1 "features" are helpful to other users; particularly for those using Photostory who may solely work within Storyboard mode. While I understand John's argument, catering to Photostory's requirements may actually impede the use and development of the more advanced editors; VPX/MMS. A suggested solution would be in settings to allow advanced users to turn off these Photostory centric features related to Track 1 (and 5). That way, Photostory, MMS and VPX users can all customize the software to their liking and expectation. Just a suggestion 🙂

Greetings,

What have I gained from this "conversation"? The fact that if I want all the whistles and bells then I should buy VPX (currently £209 in the UK) which, according to Gid, allows me to modify the photo length without affecting other tracks.

Or I can use Movie Studio 2025 Suite, currently £49.99 in the UK (75ish% cheaper than VPX), which doesn't allow me to do that but there are ways around the problem. I have MS2025 Suite which is fine for me.

I don't use Photostory (actually I bought a copy a couple of years ago because it came with a "free" set of plugins I wanted) but I assume it's even more automated (less user choice) that MS2025.

I have to admit I don't really understand why some here have multiple Magix editors if VPX does everything. But then I'm a simple soul that doesn't understand a lot of things - especially my wife of 50+ years.

As we say here in the UK "horses for courses" - and probably it's also said in other countries / continents.

Many people on this forum have moaned about a particular glitch or lack of a feature or whatever with MEP/Movie Studio. I know I've done my fair (unfair😄?) share.

If there's a feature missing, then contact Magix and ask for it but surely if they added all the features we want to all their video editing products then there wouldn't be the choices within price ranges we can afford that there currently is - if you see what I mean.

I wouldn't buy a 3 wheeler Reliant Robin and expect Ferrari performance. Reliant Robin? Blimey, that's going back a bit.

AndyW

ps @Can-Dive, there is an option 4. Start the slideshow on track 2 ignoring track 1. Just a thought.

Cought out by the timing.

edit - option 5. Put the audio on track 1 and the photos on track 2

@Gid

HI Gid

. . . . . Show me the logic here, you seriously think this is correct .?? . . . .

Resorting to using VPX for this example so as I can export the movie as an EDL list before and after making a change. The EDL llist and the behaviour do not make any sense in the example you gave - this is the EDL for the same manouvre in VPX

Base settings:

#Source Track     Play-In     Play-Out    Name
#------ ----- ----------- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- -- -- ------------ ----- ---------------------------------- --- ----- ---------------------------------- -----
      8     3       240000      480000    "PH7.jpg"
      9     3       480000      720000    "PH8.jpg"
     10   3       960000     1200000   "PH9.jpg"
      1     3     1200000    1440000  "PH10.jpg"
      
      
Object 7 length reduced:
      
#Source Track     Play-In     Play-Out   Name
#------ ----- ----------- ----------- ----------- ----------- -------- -- -- ------------ ----- ---------------------------------- --------- --------------------------------- -----
      8     3       240000       384000   "PH7.jpg"
      9     3       384000      624000   "PH8.jpg"
     10   3       864000     1104000   "PH9.jpg"
      1     3     1104000     1344000   "PH10.jpg"

I have removed the empty audio and fade in/out parameters.

The behaviour would suggest that the following objects are 'relatively' positioned to the first object on the track rather than absolute positions reference to 000000 yet the EDL data shows they are 'absolute' positions.

Relative positioning would also tie in to the observation, I prevously commented on here, with the Transition changes when there are gaps between objects.

In other words as Al would say it is 'borked'

John EB

@johnebaker @me_again @Can-Dive @AAProds

Well this has gone apace since I last looked.

Glad it works as it should in VPX although I hadn't tested that yet. I can find no mention of it only working in certain instances within the manual so I conclude it is borked (Thanks John for the correct spelling).

Hi Andy.

I'm never an early adopter of buying the latest version of either editor and normally keep one of them a generation behind in case something in the new one gets broken that I may need. That plan doesn't always work though.

Also, often more third party effects come at a lower cost via MMS than VPX, and as all effects get ported over to each editor seems a cheaper way of obtaining them.

I have noticed some odd things happen when upgrading some products. I have always had the free copy of Music Maker on my system as it contains a good ASIO driver I can use in my other audio editing daws. With the latest Humble Bundle offer the full MM2024 came with it so I downloaded it and it removed the free version which I half expected but when I logged into my Magix account the free version was gone. Can't roll back to it any more. The ASIO driver has also been renamed so not sure if it is an updated version or not. Still has a lot of benefits over the ASIO4ALL version.

Ray.

@me_again

I love the way you think! Yes, your two additional options are valid although as @AAProds had indicated, the transition controls are only available for Track 1 and not available for other tracks for some reason. But I do like your suggestion of placing the audio on Track 1 with the main video track below it. There are times where you want to synch video/photos to the beat of the music and it helps if the two tracks are beside each other.

As for @Gid suggesting that VPX can change the length of photos without impacting other tracks, if I am not mistaken, his example was using Vegas Pro (VP) not VPX. I own VPX16 and from my testing, it works exactly like MMS, unless there is some setting or workflow I am not familiar with.

To answer your question regarding multiple Magix editors, I initially purchased MMS2024 last year, but as I became more familiar with the software, I realised VPX offered a Source monitor and Project folder which was similar to Pinnacle Studio (which I really liked but they stopped development) so I decided to invest in VPX as well.

Cheers!

@CubeAce

I get your point about the third party effects, that's why I have a copy of Photostory.

@Can-Dive

... if I am not mistaken, his example was using Vegas Pro (VP) not VPX

Aah, I was wondering who'd be the first to spot my deliberate mistake 🤓😄. Slap on the wrist accepted.

AndyW

Hi All,

Good discussion! Where to start?

@Can-Dive

I may have inadvertently wrote PhotoStory when I meant Storyboard, or I meant PhotoStory as a program that caters to those using mostly photos. It lacks tools that are more for videos, along with limited tracks, but it's basically the same thing as MMS. Storyboard mode is in all 3 programs (MMS/VPX/PhotoStory) and I refer to this as the best way to put together a timeline, particularly with photos where you want to rearrange them. I suggest that you try it and you'll see the difference. Storyboard mode works like many other nle's in that to rearrange objects, you just drag it along and a space opens for it between existing objects. You never get gaps. You are working with objects on track 1 only (except for titles (track 3) and audio (track 5). In timeline mode, you have to make space one way or another when you move an object, then close up the gap. It would be nice to have a mode in timeline that allows one to work like in Storyboard mode - unless I missed something here. In VPX, there is no button to go to Storyboard mode like in MMS. You have to change the Edit Mode to Basic under the top menu, Window.

Next, Change photo length works the same in VPX as in MMS.

There are times where you want to synch video/photos to the beat of the music and it helps if the two tracks are beside each other.

I was going to mention syncing to the beat to Al. Glad you brought it up. I would use track 3 for the audio, then move it back to track 5. It's best to keep track 1 for the main background, video/photos, mainly because it makes understanding/viewing the timeline easier, good housekeeping but also because certain tools work differently with track 1 than with other tracks. Sometimes my main background timeline goes to track 3 (video on 1, its audio on 2), but I usually try to get it quickly back to track 1. Example, I have an animated map (Travel Maps or Vasco da Gama) that I want to show full screen on track 1 for a bit, then have an overlay on track 3 of a location, sometimes a photo, other times a video. Then I want to get the photo/video full size. As soon as it is, I make a cut and move the rest to track 1. When I get to the next object, which will be on track 1, I may want a transition, so it's good to have them both on the same track. It's not necessary, just easier in my opinion.

VPX/MMS do not have track level video effects whereas other nle's, like Vegas, do. So, in VPX/MMS there is really no reason to have the main background on tracks other than 1, for the most part. In Vegas, and Gid can correct me if I'm wrong, if you use track effects, some of the material will have different effects than others, so the user will place the material on the track with the pertinent effects. It's a different way of working. Sorry, getting a bit OT here.

Back to syncing and using Change photo length and @AAProds Al. Whilst going through your problem of audio moving, I was wondering if you were cutting to the beat. Were you? Do you want to?

If so and for @Can-Dive, try using the BPM wizard on the audio. You will end up with beat markers on the audio object that can be snapped to. Check the approximate spacing that you want for the beats - every beat or second or third beat. Then adjust the photos by using Change Photo length to at least get close. Then use Align objects to snapmarkers to readjust the lengths of the photos, putting the cut points aligned with the snapmarkers on the audio.

Here is the video:

@me_again,

I have to admit I don't really understand why some here have multiple Magix editors if VPX does everything.

In my case, it's mainly because I do tutorials and the most used is MMS. For editing, I use VPX as I find it so much better, having both the Preview and Source Monitors, the Project Temp Folder, the instruments (Histogram, RGB Parade, etc., more effects, finite control on audio, and more. It's best with 2 screens and I have the timeline full height on one of them, so I can quickly access other tracks and see what I've got.

More later as this may timeout before I post.

John CB

@AAProds @Can-Dive

Hi,

Here is a video showing using Storyboard mode in MMS, moving objects, adding in audio, titles, and changing photo lengths.

There are also interesting things that can be done using the Slideshow Maker wizard, including adding in audio, adjusting duration to suit the duration of the music selected, adjusting video clips as well, and more.

It's good to know the tools that are available and how to use them to your advantage.

Ok, I have been advised that my day on the computer just ended. Off to do the hoovering (vacuuming in Canada).

John CB

@browj2

Hi John

A couple of points:-

. . . . You are working with objects on track 1 only (except for titles (track 3) and audio (track 5). In timeline mode,  . . . .

If you have one applied one or more Collages you can be working with 15 tracks, or more, depending on the Collage template - not all tracks have objects on them though. The 'spacer' goes on track 1, the rest of the collage starts on track 5 (Photostory) or track 6 (MMS & VPX) ie directly below the dedicated audio track.

Fortunately the Collage will behave as a single block, until you ungroup it, then mayhem.
 

. . . . . In timeline mode, you have to make space one way or another when you move an object, then close up the gap. It would be nice to have a mode in timeline that allows one to work like in Storyboard mode . . . .

There is, in both MMS and VPX - position the timeline marker to where you want to insert, select the media in the Media pool, to be inserted and press the Single track ripple - shortcut 2 key (top row of keyboard),, also works with other tracks if you select the track to be inserted on, other options are:-

John EB

@browj2

Thanks for taking the time to put together the Storyboard video. It has the makings of an excellent tutorial for your YouTube channel. I particularly like the use of the numbered, colour objects to clearly demonstrate the software.

For synching to the beat, I use the BPM wizard regularly and really like it! Using Pinnacle Studio, I had to do it manually and Videostudio, introduced this functionality but it was pretty basic and never quite worked as expected. So kudos to Magix for having this great feature! Like you, I find audio track 5 too far away from the main video track to synch to the beat so I usually have the music track on Track 2. I don't tend to move it back to Track 5 but to apply titles and overlays below it.

In VPX, there is no button to go to Storyboard mode like in MMS. You have to change the Edit Mode to Basic under the top menu, Window. 

I noticed this too and if I can take the liberty to second guess the development team I think the rational is as follows; There is a natural upgrade path from Photostory to MMS, therefore having a Storyboard button in MMS, assists the user to become familiar with the new software and makes it easy for them to transition to timeline mode which offers more flexibility.

As for VPX, Storyboard mode is hidden in the menu hierarchy. Advanced users gravitate to VPX and probably don't use Storyboard mode due to its inherent limitations. But the development team also realised that advanced users also need the ability to quickly swap scenes on the timeline so there is Scene Overview mode which allows them to do just that!

In terms of workflow, basically the user would dump photos and video clips on Track 1 and jump to Scene Overview mode to move the objects around. Then, once happy, jump back to timeline mode and complete the editing. This, has to be done early on in the process because as @AAProds (and subsequently the rest of us) has discovered, moving objects on Track 1 can mess up objects on other tracks. Therefore, in my opinion, @AAProds and @Gid made valid criticisms as Advanced users. They want more control over the timeline rather than the system assuming what they want.

As I indicated before, I understand why in Storyboard mode objects are linked. A beginner may add text to each photo (say the date or location) and then start moving the photos around. This user wants the text to move with the photo and the program does that.  On the other hand, another user may want to have an opening title and then subsequently switch the opening photo - problem, the opening title has moved down the timeline due to the switch! That is why I previously suggested a new setting to switch these Photostory/Storyboard centric functionalities off. Advanced users may not want this functionality.

As a side note, regarding the special tracks 1 and 5, for VPX, Magix is developing the functionality where track order can be freely set for each project. It will be interesting to see how they address this issue in light of these special tracks?  I'm personally looking forward to VPX17.🙂

@Can-Dive

Hi.

Rescue Your Video Tapes, Video Easy and other earlier and some other free Magix software also has/had storyboard mode or something close to it.

It's been a standard layout across a lot of their visual, moving image, editing software.

As for layout of audio or still image or video to tracks. Both MMS (Previously MEP) and VPX have unlimited tracks and really only bogged down by the power of the computer using it. Subsequently my still image, video and supporting audio is all over the place where I can easily identify sound to the relevant sections.

Even the supplied Magix demo does not follow the 'rules' mentioned here. A lot of what can be done boils down to individual workflow preferences.

Make of that one what you will.

Ray.

@Can-Dive, @browj2

Hi Can Dive, John

. . . . In VPX, there is no button to go to Storyboard mode like in MMS. You have to change the Edit Mode to Basic under the top menu, Window. . . . . As for VPX, Storyboard mode is hidden in the menu hierarchy . . . .

True, however you can create a keyboard shortcut. for VPX I have mine set to Shift +F12, as I have F10 to F12 as custom display settings for timeline mode.

Other keyboard shortcuts I have changed for a better workflow are:-

• Mouse modes - swapped Single track and Multi track 7 and 8 to give a more logical order.
   
• Trimmer single object, Trimmer editor - swapped shortcuts N and Shift+N
   
• Movie Effects - changed to H

John EB

@Can-Dive

Hi,

Something seems strange. Must be my memory. I seem to recall that I never liked Scene Overview for some reason. Now it looks like a very good choice for rearranging things rather than Storyboard. Storyboard may be more convenient for adding in music and titles if one wants to go that route.

@johnebaker

Hi John EB,

I never thought to add in a shortcut to switch to Basic Mode (Storyboard). Done. Also, I noticed that I had to also create a shortcut to get back to Standard Mode as pressing a Window Arrangement shortcut would not get me back to Standard Mode.

I probably should have switched the other shortcuts long ago, but with the ShuttlePro, Shift+N is programmed and for mouse modes, I just click on the one that I want as all 3 are on the toolbar.

@Can-Dive

I rarely move the audio from track 5 or whichever track I have it on as I use Snap Markers to help line things up. Also, using VPX, my Project window (Timeline) is full height on the screen.

I like to keep my timeline pretty standard and I use a few template projects to start off with - coloured and named tracks, amongst other things.

When I run into clips with problems of some kind, I change the colour of the object to something like red, and sometimes put a note in the object properties or add something to the name of the object.

@johnebaker

John EB, could you please try out the problem that I found with Storyboard mode to confirm if there is a bug with having multiple audio files (or parts of them) and reducing photos using the Change photo length tool. The audio files on track 5 make overlaps rather than staying put as they do in Timeline Mode.

As for collages in PhotoStory or Timeline mode - try out Change photo length. Selecting a grouped object, like a collage, selects all elements, so it's important to just right-click on the spacer on track 1, change the length, and then when asked if one wants to change all selected, say no.

Original:

After changing collage to 10s but accepting to change all selected instead of just the spacer on track 1:

some of the objects are now too long.

One of the idiosyncrasies of Change photo length.

John CB

@browj2

Hi John

Standard, previously called Default, and the Reset window arrangement (F9) behave differently depending how you have switched through or moved panes.

The F9 reset sometimes reverts to a previous layout of panes, not the Standard/Default layout - I mentioned this in a previous topic a while ago.

. . . . a bug with having multiple audio files (or parts of them) and reducing photos using the Change photo length tool . . .

I get the same - looks like a bug.

. . . . After changing collage to 10s but accepting to change all selected instead of just the spacer on track 1, some of the objects are now too long. One of the idiosyncrasies of Change photo length. . . .

Agreed, it also chops the end off, and/or flushes all objects depending on the collage layout:-

John EB

@johnebaker

Thank you for sharing your shortcut tips - they will be useful. You also introduced me to some new functionality - Movie Master Effects (H). I wondered why I never saw it before then found it under the Effects menu. I never use the Effects menu and thought it a bit superfluous since you can access the Effects and other functions via the tabs below the menu or via the right mouse click context menu. All except the Movie Master Effects.😕

I had a play with the Master Effects and like the concept but wished I had the option to apply it at the track level and not necessarily the entire movie. For example, I may want to make a master adjustment to the main video track, but not to the overlays. Perhaps a future feature update. 😉

@browj2

 . . . a bug with having multiple audio files (or parts of them) and reducing photos using the Change photo length tool . . .

I too can confirm this issue with Storyboard mode in VPX16.

@CubeAce

Thank you for sharing screenshots of the different versions of Storyboard mode in the Magix video editors -obviously geared towards beginners and photographers (slideshows). Your own complex projects would not fit within the Storyboard structure particularly where you have placed audio on tracks 1 and 2. 🙂

Even the supplied Magix demo does not follow the 'rules' mentioned here. A lot of what can be done boils down to individual workflow preferences.
 

I loaded the Demo project and I understand what you mean. While the main video is on track 1, the music track is actually on track 7 while track 5 contains these gray background bars for subtitles. They could have easily put the music track on 5 but didn't, demonstrating that any track can be used. @AAProds discovered that's not necessarily true. Personally, I think he found a bug, particularly since he was using mouse mode for single objects which should not impact other tracks. Ironically @browj2 finds the same bug shortening photos in Storyboard mode (using track 5) where the music cross fades into one another.  It's the exact same issue. So if one argues that @AAProds discovery is not a bug, but by design, then one can conclude @browj2 discovery is not a bug either because you get the same result.

Perhaps "the bug" is actually track 5 which doesn't act like the other tacks in Timeline mode with regards to the Change Photo Length function.

Here is another observation, If @AAProds had his music files on track 2 and lengthened the photos, a gap would be created between the two music files.  If he placed his music on track 5 and in Story board mode, he lengthens the photos, a gap will be created between the two music files as well. But in Timeline mode, if the music files are on track 5 and he lengthens the photos, no gap is created. So which one is the bug and what was the design intent of the development team? When photos are lengthened, in Storyboard mode, a gap is created between music files on track 5. In Timeline mode, a similar gap is created in all tracks except track 5. It appears that a gap should have been created (rightly or wrongly) but that is not happening on track 5 in Timeline mode. Confusing? Yes, because the process is not consistent.

@johnebaker

Hi John EB,

Thanks for confirming about the audio problem in Storyboard mode.

@Can-Dive

Hi,

Thanks also for confirming the audio problem in Storyboard mode.

The Demo is so old that most of us weren't born yet. Ok, that's an exaggeration, but check the resolution of the videos - 512x288. Things in the program may have been different when the Demo was first done. The mvp file was probably updated when Magix changed the Size/Position/Rotation effect several years ago, but that is about all. If you switch to Storyboard mode, of course you won't see the background music because it's on track 7 when now, it should be on track 5. Something changed in the interim. I see that Magix turned on track level volume and pan curves and extensively uses the track volume curves rather than object volume curves. Generally, this is not a good idea unless it's done after all editing of object locations and lengths. Ducking (damping) is an example of the last thing one should do only after final placement and length of all objects. I wouldn't use this Demo as a good example, just an example.

When photos are lengthened, in Storyboard mode, a gap is created between music files on track 5. In Timeline mode, a similar gap is created in all tracks except track 5. It appears that a gap should have been created (rightly or wrongly) but that is not happening on track 5 in Timeline mode.

I'm going to have to go with the bug in Storyboard mode. For someone using Storyboard, if you add more than one background music piece and then modify the length of some photos, you most likely don't want the music objects to move - like creating a huge transition if you shorten a bunch of photos or huge gaps if you increase the duration. Simple to fix...for us, but shouldn't happen. I'll raise a ticket with Magix.

About my images - photos 01....10 etc. I have a bunch of these. Many were created by Terry Pinnell for his tutorial and thread on creating your own Collage. There is a link thread with more details. He has since removed the zipped photo file from Dropbox. I created others with different dimensions to suit photo sizes from a couple of different sources and then I created several collages. That reminds me, I have to track these down to update and document them. They aren't showing up in VPX or MMS on my desktop, but do on my laptop. If anyone is interested, I'll post a couple of the preview videos.

About video effects at the track level. Given the way that MMS/VPX works, I don't think that it would be feasible. There are too many things that could end up on a track that had effects that were not intended to have them, collages being one of them. Magix has made copying and pasting effects simple, so you can create one or more effects, then copy/paste to many objects. You can save and recall effects, placing them where desired. Then go and tweak some of them, as there is almost always 1 for which the effect isn't perfect. Then you have effects with keyframes - very difficult to image this working on objects of different durations, etc. Furthermore, the effects that could be used would have to be limited, as they are for overall Movie Effects. Something to think about.

John CB

@Can-Dive

Hi.

Personally I think the single object mouse mode is broken as parts of what it can do as a shortcut are greyed out and I take that to mean they are already applied when they should not be. It would be difficult to know what is broken until one part of what is going on is at least fixed. Thankfully, at least objects can be manually altered.

Ray.