Hi Al,
What you're describing is a breakdown of the fundamental grouping principles of the program. Those specific rules should only apply to the scenarios where they are needed such as collages, which I have never used.
As I said earlier, you can't have both - think about it. Grouping was just one example. Anything on another track was likely placed there on purpose to be at the right place at the right respective time. The most logical with the least impact is to have everything move together.
The solution was given - use track 5 for audio, so your problem is solved and your argument about specific rules does not hold.
It's illogical that, for my basic scenario (and by the looks, not an isolated one) that I can't change the photo length without totally messing up another object and completely ruining what I was trying to achieve.
When you go changing photo lengths way downstream in the editing process, you are going to create problems of one kind or another. Messing up another object is not ruining what you were trying to achieve - the program is telling you that you have to do some further editing because of your edit - it doesn't know what to do. If your second song started at the beginning of a photo and then you changed the duration of photos upstream, then your start point will have to be adjusted, by you. The track 5 solution is a simple one, but even that won't fix an alignment problem that you just created - it just ignore it. Again, think about it.
What you were saying (specific rules) is that if there is nothing on any other track except audio (not on track 5), then modifying photo lengths on track 1 should not move anything on any other track. However, anything can be on a track. But, if there is something that is not audio on other tracks, then the program should move everything unless there is something that you don't want moved. How would the program know what you want to move and what you don't want to move?
To take if further, if one used single track ripple to limit movement of objects on other tracks, then, as I pointed out previously, one could create a ripe old mess with grouped objects moving overtop of ungrouped objects, etc. Or would you like the track 1 part of a group to move but not the other parts of the group on other tracks? That would, of course, make a huge mess.
Ok, that is too much about this subject.
In several of my tutorials and where relevant, I tell the user to keep track 5 free for audio, in particular, audio from the Audio tab, sound effects from templates, other music supplied by the program, like Slideshow music, Soundtrack Maker, and Movie & Editing Templates. Even my own audio files will go by default to track 5. Try it yourself with no track selected and using the Import curved arrow in the Media Pool Import tab.
Of course, you can put anything that you like on track 5, but the user should be aware as to how the program handles the import of audio files and maybe avoid putting other objects on track 5.
Going through the manual, and so far I have only found a reference to track 5 being an audio track under Storyboard, page 61. Still looking.
John CB
What I tried to do was logical. What the program then did is illogical. In your scenarios, it's behaviour may be logical. But it shouldn't enforce that behaviour on other scenarios where it is not logical.
Clearly, the track 5 setup is not well known, and certainly not mentioned specifically in the various Helps. And, I assume, neither is the behaviour that you describe.
That note in the manual on page 61 is non-sensical gibberish. Why are they mentioning tracks in Storyboard mode?
We'll have to agree to disagree.
@browj2 All you've just done is create scenarios where your logic makes sense but -
the program is telling you that you have to do some further editing because of your edit - it doesn't know what to do ..
It shouldn't do anything, if I'm in Single Mouse mode no gap filling or moving of objects on other tracks should occur.
Here in VP is what I expect, I selected the pictures only, changed the length, clicked enter & only the pictures shortened, nothing else moves.
Whether this messes up sync with other track objects is irrelevant, I'm sure we are all well aware of that possibly unwelcome out-come but from the simple test in these comments the way it works at the moment the movement of the audio messes that up, it's not logical.
'Think about it'
Single Mouse mode should not affect other tracks or objects.
Thanks for discovering this anomaly. I too didn't realise that track 5 was a special "audio track." I knew that if you sent an audio file to the timeline and a track wasn't specified, the file would land on track 5 by default but I didn't think it was anything special. I tested this issue in VPX16 and can confirm it works exactly like MMS2025 although @browj2 has indicated that this issue has been around since 2015.
In the Change photo length window, there is a tick box; "Apply to selected range." I thought by ticking this box would resolve the issue since you are only applying the time change to the selected range of photos only - but it didn't work. The audio, on track two, shifted. I have yet to determine what this tick box is actually used for?
- If you select one photo, change the time and hit ok only that photo length is changed
- If you select more than one photo, change the time and hit ok, the selected photos length are changed.
- If you select one or more photos, change the time and hit apply to all, all photos length are changed regardless of what photos are selected.
My question is, was this tick box suppose to only apply the change in length of the photos selected and not impact any other track? But over the years, with version updates, this feature stopped working?
Another "lost in translation" caption methinks. It means any image in the "range", if one is set up, meaning the blue range at the top of the timeline window. It will apply the changed length only to the images covered by the blue range. Probably not needed now that we can select a string of images using the standard Windows Shift convention. IIRC, in the early days, we couldn't do that.
Hi,
It's complicated and I got timed out after trying to upload my first image. I don't have much time, so here are a few things to think about.
Gid, you can't compare what you did in VP with the Change photo length tool in MMS. MMS has different rules and procedures, and the Change photo length tool has its own rules.
The way Change photo length tool works overrides other tools, like mouse modes and for good reason. It is designed to do the least amount of damage to the timeline. Both it and Close gaps work the same - everything that is pertinent gets moved to close the gap or for an increase in length. If the tool doesn't work for what you want to do, use another tool.
Change photo length tool works differently on track 1 than on other tracks. This probably has a lot to do with the way StoryBoard works. We know how the tool works with a photo or photos selected on track 1, except maybe that Apply to all actually only means all on track 1, not any on other tracks unless they are grouped to a photo that gets a changed length on track 1. BTW, I noticed that text objects changed duration if the somewhat associated track 1 object change length, even when ungrouped. Objects on other tracks move to fill gaps or to the right if the photo length is increased.
On other tracks, when you select 1 or more photos to be changed, Apply to selected range and Apply to all are greyed out, can't be used. Decrease/increase the length and everything to the right moves left or right - but only on that track (unless grouped). So, Al, you could have used track 2 instead of track 1 as an alternative.
Storyboard mode
Al, since your project was simple, just photos on track 1 plus audio, why didn't you use Storyboard mode? That is what it's for. Audio automatically goes to track 5 when imported. However, audio objects automatically get a 1 second cross-fade. No problem there. But, it can get messy for some strange reason and here is the bug. If you now go and change the length of all photos, the audio files will bunch up, overlap, giving the same problem that you described at the outset. This shouldn't happen in Storyboard mode and doesn't happen in Timeline mode with audio on track 5, so I think that there is problem with Storyboard mode and its use of track 5.
John CB
John, some comments if I may:
Gid, you can't compare what you did in VP with the Change photo length tool in MMS. MMS has different rules and procedures, and the Change photo length tool has its own rules.
It shows that VP behaves as a normal user would expect. MMS has rules and procedures that don't make sense and are not documented.
The way Change photo length tool works overrides other tools, like mouse modes
It shouldn't. It's not logical to do so.
If the tool doesn't work for what you want to do, use another tool.
Like what? How would you suggest I change the length of 80 images by 1 frame, not using the change photo length?
except maybe that Apply to all actually only means all on track 1, not any on other tracks unless they are grouped to a photo that gets a changed length on track 1.
Maybe? That is definitely what happens. You said it yourself and supported the feature.
So, Al, you could have used track 2 instead of track 1 as an alternative.
No I couldn't because then I don't have access to the transition controls.
why didn't you use Storyboard mode?
Because I haven't used Storyboard mode since 2004 and I'm not about to restart now. I have frame-accurate positioning requirements and I need the timeline to do that.
If you now go and change the length of all photos, the audio files will bunch up, overlap, giving the same problem that you described at the outset. This shouldn't happen in Storyboard mode and doesn't happen in Timeline mode with audio on track 5, so I think that there is problem with Storyboard mode and its use of track 5.
The whole thing is borked. Undesirable rules/consequences and non-existent documentation.
I can live with audio on track 5; fortunately, I haven't had a recent need to use any of the other tracks for my slideshows.
Hi Al, John
Moderator hat on:
A reminder - the topic is about the 'Change photo length tool and its effect on other objects on the timeline
Moderator hat off.
With respect to the following:-
The reality is that all video editors have their own set of 'rules' for changing photo lengths, depending on program settings, mouse modes, selections and layout of the objects on the timeline tracks and the 'Apply' features.
I agree, documentation is essential. due to the rules not being consistent across all video editing software.
It must override other tools, especially the Mouse mode depending on the objects selected and/or layout of those objects in the timeline
The behaviour has not changed, this is how it has worked since at least MEP 2015, I cannot check an earlier version as I do not have my older version VM's available at this time.
However
Yes and No, the Apply to all and Apply to range are definitely 'borked', both indpendently, and when trying to use both together ie to 'apply to all within the set range' - nothing happens
Al can you clarify this please.
John EB
the Apply to all and Apply to range are definitely 'borked', both indpendently, and when trying to use both together ie to 'apply to all within the set range' - nothing happens
No I couldn't because then I don't have access to the transition controls.
Al can you clarify this please.
John, no, re "independently", provided that the user understands that these effects only apply to images on Track 1, they work as expected, including the range, as I explained to Candive above.
"Transition Controls" = Apply to All and Apply to Range; only available for images on track 1.
I agree that you nothing happens if you have "Apply to range" ticked and then try "apply to all". That's probably to be expected, and is an illogical move by the user. The program, though, should dim-out the "Apply to all button" when the user has ticked the box, the same way it dims-out when you try this on images on other tracks.
Greetings, Al,
"Transition Controls" = Apply to All and Apply to Range; only available for images on track 1.
Yes and no. If you move your photos to track 2 (moving relevant audio etc down also 🤓), lasso or shift/left click the range of photos to alter, click on "change photo length", just click OK and then click on "change all selected", all the photos change and everything else stays put.
Either move erverything else back up to track 1 etc or else delete Track 1 if empty.
It doesn't alter the documentation error, but is a quick, convenient work round.
AndyW
HI Al
. . . . "Transition Controls" = Apply to All and Apply to Range; only available for images on track 1. . . . .
Thanks for the clarification, I have never noticed that, probably because I have never used it on any other tracks on its own.
As you say, on any other track they are not available for that track only, however, and this is the way I have done it in the past, it does work if you include track 1 in the selection, see clip below.
There is one interesting 'oddball' in that if there is a gap between objects - see track 2, the width of the gap is included in the transition length, as seeen below the transition is shorter. If the gap is longer than the transition length the following objects are moved left by the width of the gap - transition length.
John EB
@AAProds @Gid @johnebaker
Happy New Year!
The Change photo length tool works the way it works to do the most good and least amount of damage. I'm not saying that the tool doesn't have a lot of idiosyncrasies, it does. And it can get very complicated. So, it's best to understand what the tool does best and use it accordingly. Using it on a complex timeline can make a real mess if one is not careful, and this does not matter whether or not mouse modes are applicable.
Both Al and Gid want it to do something else to override that. Am I correct? Go back to what I said at the beginning about most users (99+%). You want something that will rarely, if ever, be used. Could the tool be better? Yes. But that would be a feature request. I told you to think about what the tool does, how objects are set on the tracks and the impact of changing lengths - in both directions.
Gid, in your statements and your VP example, you want single mouse mode, and decreasing the length of objects should decrease the duration without moving anything, without closing up gaps, as shown in your VP example. However, the Change photo length tool has to work both ways, increasing photo duration as well as decreasing it.
Gid, the Change photo length tool closes up gaps. This is normal - we don't normally want gaps to open up so the tool works to close up gaps. As I said at the outset, if it didn't, we would be inundated with irate users. This used to happen regularly many years ago.
So, Gid, in your VP example, put the three images that are on track 4 so that they abut one after the other. Then, increase the duration of those three images by more than double the current duration, say from 5s to 15s. Please show the result.
Al, as you seem to agree with Gid on this, I want you to put 3 images of say, 6 seconds each on track 1. Now I want you to increase the length manually of the first object to 18 seconds without moving objects 2 and 3. Can you do it? Why would you want to increase the duration of all photos on track 1 without each one moving? They would all collide.
Al and Gid, I am assuming that most users are like me, and when I have overlays like text, photos, videos and narration on tracks they are located rationally, for a purpose - lined up with the main or background photo on track 1, whether grouped or not. If the photo on track 1 moves because I changed the duration of one or more photos on track 1, I want my overlays to also move accordingly - always, grouped or not. This is a logical scenario.
What you both seem to be saying is that you are putting objects on other tracks and locating them for no particular reason. If the objects on track 1 moves, it doesn't matter that the objects that you put on other tracks don't move with them. That is an unlikely scenario so please explain why 99.99% of users would do such a thing, regularly.
Another logical scenario is having overlays on, say track 3, but one of them, at the right of some others, is grouped to the object on track 1 - as per the image below. When you decrease the length of an upstream photo, in this case photo 1 (PH01), everything on track 1 moves to the left to fill the gap. By definition, grouped objects move together, so the grouped object on track 3 moves to the left. If, as you both seem to want, the objects on other tracks didn't move, except for grouped objects, then the grouped object would move over top of the object at its left making a transition as shown in the image below.
An important undocumented feature (I think) is that if a photo is grouped with another image object, then using Change photo length tool on a grouped image will change the duration of both. However, if the lengths are not the same...here the idiosyncrasies start.
As well, if image objects on other tracks are not grouped with an image on track 1 and the images on track 1 are changed, those on other tracks can move over top of others creating transitions or getting blocked.
Anyone want to see some of these idiosyncrasies?
I have more, but it might time-out on me, so I'll post this now.
John CB
So, Gid, in your VP example, put the three images that are on track 4 so that they abut one after the other. Then, increase the duration of those three images by more than double the current duration, say from 5s to 15s. Please show the result
The images would overlap, yeah you're right they would collide, obviously. Duh!. Like I've said, that is & would be an unwelcome but expected result. It's 1000% not an argument in your favour in any way shape or form.
@browj2 Basically you're on cloud 9 mate, I repeat & 'think about it', really think about it, In single mouse mode nothing should move from it's start position whether it screws up sync with other objects or not,
& '99.99% of users', - You can't say that, you have no clue what 99% of people want, no most people are not like you. This mouse mode option & how it works rarely comes up in conversations & in fact it seems 99.9% of us don't fully understand how it exactly works. So stop making up figures that aren't factual, excuses of why MMS works this way & random scenarios that you think support your logic, they don't, there is 0 logic behind your statements & frankly they're just embarrassing. 🤦♂️
I'm out of this, it's like banging your head against a brick wall.
Right. The tool has to work without making a total mess. It is a tool with its own rules and procedures.
As for my figures, yes, I make them up - because having done this for a long time, observing how others work, watching many, many tutorials of Magix and other nle's, using another nle, and having done many tutorials on using the program, along with the logical placement of objects on the timeline in many of my own videos, my assumptions are probably very close to reality. Most users do not purposely do illogical things on the timeline.
To use the Change photo length tool, the user should not have to think about which mouse mode is to be used. Mouse modes are irrelevant for the use of this tool. Following your thinking, most users would be in Mouse mode for a single object, totally normal, apply the change photo length, decreasing the length of all, and get what you say should happen as shown below. Then they would complain to Magix and on the forum.
Or increasing the duration up to double the initial duration:
Anything beyond that is impossible to do in the program.
That would be embarrassing.
The tool is designed the way it works for a purpose that will satisfy most users and the way most users will work, whether you like it or not. Magix figured this out long ago. The tool has its faults, but doing what you say it should do is not one of them.
I have shown you what the tool does and why. I didn't make it up. If you think that it should work differently, then tell Magix, and tell them why.
John CB
Hi Gid
. . . . The images would overlap, yeah you're right they would collide, obviously. Duh!. Like I've said, that is & would be an unwelcome but expected result. . . . .
Look at this by way of an analogy:- a single decker bus is full with some people standing in the aisle at the front of the bus, you want to get on the bus, your expected/desired result would be for the standing passengers to move further down the bus to make space for you.
This is how MMS/VPX behaves when increasing photo length(s). The overlapping of the photos is not an expected outcome and the following objects move to cater for the relative change in position and distance between each other.
. . . . You can't say that, you have no clue what 99% of people want, no most people are not like you. This mouse mode option & how it works rarely comes up in conversations & in fact it seems 99.9% of us don't fully understand how it exactly works. . . . .
Correct, this topic rarely comes up.
A search on 'mouse mode behaviour', you will find the number of unique results returned is very low, depending on the exact term used there are less than 10 results, from a potential 200,000+ records that can be returned, ie .< 0.005%, this strongly suggests that the current behaviour is as expected.
John EB
Look at this by way of an analogy:- a single decker bus is full with some people standing in the aisle at the front of the bus, you want to get on the bus, your expected/desired result would be for the standing passengers to move further down the bus to make space for you.
Yes with some kind of auto ripple applied..
A search on 'mouse mode behaviour', you will find the number of unique results returned is very low, depending on the exact term used there are less than 10 results, from a potential 200,000+ records that can be returned, ie .< 0.005%, this strongly suggests that the current behaviour is as expected.
Yes in normal editing circumstances but when Change photo length is included it's messed up.
@johnebaker @browj2 You both seem to not understand what Single mouse mode means, your arguments make sense with Single track or All track mouse modes but not in Single mouse mode, my VP is a perfect example of no auto ripple happening.
Like I say banging my head against the wall, if you really think the way it works is right, it's logical & what most people would expect is delusional.
Show me the logic here, you seriously think this is correct .??
This is why i respond to your mentions of 'it needs to do this because, what if & users expect or would complain...' as utter nonsense.
@browj2 @johnebaker @Can-Dive @me_again @AAProds @Gid
Hi gang.
I've been watching this topic completely bemused as to what was going on but after Gid's last video I tried for myself and have to agree with him. I have never used this option so had never noticed, but that behaviour is not what I would expect and if the function is not, to coin an Al idiom 'Bawlked?/Bauked?/ totally ******, then why are the two options normally associated with the single track mode the same in the single mouse mode. IE, un-selectable?
I would expect that function to do the same as dragging the right edge of an object with the mouse but to a precise time and leave all other objects on that track where they were or the timing of all subsequent object placements goes out the window.
Then again the whole exercise doesn't make sense to me as if I were changing the length of an object I probably would want the start position to be in a different place as well.
Ray.
Gid, what you showed is what I mentioned way back. Using Change photo length on objects on tracks other than track 1 has a different behaviour - it does not move objects on other tracks, only on its track and this has advantages, but mostly disadvantages. This is just one of the idiosyncrasies of the tool. There are many more and I'll describe some of them. Also, I mentioned way back that it would be good if there was a check box on the tool to just modify the object duration without moving anything else. There isn't so we have to live with what we have unless we can get Magix to change this. I would like more flexibility with this tool - as would you, right? There could also be a warning about increasing the duration causing overlay problems and in some cases, outright can't do it.
From what I have observed, the tool was mainly intended to be used on objects on track 1 and probably targeted to those using Storyboard. In fact, Al's case is the typical one. @AAProds, Al, if you had been using Storyboard mode, your photos would be on track 1, as you did, and your audio on track 5 - as per the manual. You don't see this in Storyboard mode. If you use Change photo length in Storyboard mode or in Timeline mode with just photos (and even some videos) on track 1 and your music on track 5, we would not be having this discussion. No, wait a minute, I take that back, as I found a bug with Storyboard mode and the behaviour of the audio. Grrrr. At least it works properly in Timeline mode - for this simple case. Right Al?
In any event Al, you should give Storyboard a chance as it has evolved over the years. Where it shines is in moving photos around - reordering. Just drag them, whereas in Timeline mode, this is a chore.
So, as a general rule, the Change photo length tool can best be used with photos on track 1, keeping in mind the impact on objects on other tracks.
To go on, in Timeline mode, if you have narration, put it on any track but 1 and 5. I have to assume that you want your narration to start with a particular photo as this would be the normal case. If that photo moves, you most likely want the narration to move as well, grouped or not.
In the image below, I have narration on track 4 starting with PH08 along with an overlay arrow on track 2, grouped to PH08. I also have more narration starting with PH10 and an overlay image on track 3 not grouped to PH10.
If I now reduce the length of PH06 and PH07 from 6 to 3 seconds, they get reduced and everything to the right and below (to the right) gets moved to avoid a gap on track 1. Note that the narration moved, but the music on track 5 did not move.
This is the behaviour that I believe suits most users. So far, so good.
I'll undo that and instead, change the duration of photos PH08 and PH09. Warning. Decreasing the duration is probably going to muck up my narration. This is not a problem with the tool, but with the guy behind the keyboard.
My two photos have to be long enough to accommodate my narration, so I messed up, not the tool.
However, note that my grouped arrow overlay on track 2 changed size along with the photo of track 1. Perfect.
I'll stop this message here as I don't want it to time out on me, and show more normal things and start showing some idiosyncrasies in the next thread.
John CB
This one is for both of you. @Can-Dive (a name would be good) asked about using the range.
In the image below, I have set a range that starts part way over PH02 and ends part way over PH07. Note that there are also photo overlays on track 3 - images 01 to 04.
To start, I'll select PH02 to Ph07 and change the duration from 6 seconds to 3 seconds but without selecting Range. This should change the duration of PH02 to PH07. Watch what happens to the ungrouped photos on track 3 - major overlapping.
Major problem on track 3.
Undo, and this time check the box for the Range and do the same thing:
Only PH03 to PH06 were changed. Thus only photos completely within the range are modified. PH02 and PH07 are not modified. So, note what the range does.
Undo.
Now, I'll group the images on track 1 with their respective image on track 3 - PH02 with 01, PH03 with 02...
I'll select PH02 to PH07, the grouped images on track 3 are also highlighted, right-click on PH02 and change the length from 6 to 3 seconds, change all selected.
Everything works fine. The selected objects along with their grouped objects changed duration, and everything at the right moved to the left. So, it's important to group objects if the Change photo length tool is to be used.
However, here comes a problem with Range.
Undo. Watch what happens when I change the duration of the same Range but with the objects on tracks 1 and 3 grouped.
A gap shows up. Also, PH03 and 01 got modified. I have no explanation for this.
Off for supper.
John CB
@AAProds @johnebaker @Gid @Can-Dive @me_again
Hi John.
To me just looking at the tool and trying to use it, it's broken as there is no difference between the way it works in single mouse mode and single track mode.
I couldn't use it as in any of my videos, the narration is on the video and usually done by a tour guide. Other people might tend to vlog so their videos would be similar in nature.
Just thought as I type this, I haven't tried having the video and audio on a single track. I will try that sometime tomorrow on track 5. That still may not work in VPX if one had 2 radio mics and needed to mix the two mono channels by splitting them.
I did notice that if I tried to pin a still to a point on the timeline I got a warning message about making sure I had got everything I wanted correct before proceeding as further adjustment could cause issues. That at least made sense and I was warned.
The other thing I haven't tried yet is locking the other tracks.
Why do I think of these things afterwards?
Ray.
Hi Ray,
The tool is for photos or other images, not video, and best with slideshows like Al's, and track 1 objects and limited objects on other tracks. Get outside of that or when the timeline gets difficult, things can get out of hand. Best not to use it on other tracks.
Look at my images - mostly photos.
If you want to see a couple of strange things, with photos on track 1, try putting a video on track 4 with its audio on track 5, then use the Change photo length on a photo before the video. The video will move, but not the audio. Track 5 does not move audio.
Another one is with a setup like I have shown, plus a photo on track 1, a grouped overlay on another track, with a different duration. Then right click, Change photo length on the track 1 object, give it a different length, change selected, ok. Observe.
Undo.
Do again but right-clicking on the grouped object not on track 1. Change the duration (from 4 to 5s in my case), change selected, ok. Observe. Both objects get same duration - 5s. Still slight overlap on track 1.
The next two objects on track 1 are each grouped with their object on track 3. If I ungroup them then do again to PH03/02, I get an overlap of PH03 with PH04.
If I make the grouped objects the same duration to start with, I get a different result.
Modifying the grouped object on track 3, like from 4 to 9s, makes it 9s and moves everything on the track to the right, then the object on track 1 gets the change from 6 to 9s and overlaps the object to the right because the tool doesn't move the objects on track 1.
Modifying the grouped object on track 1, like from 6 to 9s, makes the track 1 object 9s and moves everything on the track to the right, the object on track 2 gets the change from 6 to 9s, then after Change all selected, the object on track 1 increase in length to 12s and overlaps with the object to its right. Not desirable at all.
However, not changing the other selected object when the right-clicked object is on track 1, changes just the one object and works fine. The grouped object doesn't change length. Then, manual adjustment would be used.
So, for grouped objects, to avoid problems, modify the length of the track 1 object, don't accept the grouped object also selected, and the tool works fine.
Selecting objects on more than one track for a global change will also give problems. TBD.
Hard to follow without a video, so I'll do one up tomorrow if time permits, but probably not, as I have to get ready for house guests.
Ray,
I did notice that if I tried to pin a still to a point on the timeline I got a warning message about making sure I had got everything I wanted correct before proceeding as further adjustment could cause issues.
Please explain in more detail what you are doing.
John CB