Wow, I just wasted £55 then. Playing the video without accurate matching of the video clap and the audio clap just looks and sounds comical - they're so far apart it's cl-click and apparently can't be manually placed accurately. 'Movie' editing software without the ability to do the most common function in movie making? Bizarre. A total show stopper for me. I can understand a need at times for snapping, but what program with snapping doesn't have a snap off-switch?

What I find puzzling is that this user is doing exactly what I need to do and his video shows clearly that he is moving objects smoothly to exactly where he wants them with no evidence of the juddering of snapping.

@Skyline_UK

"...they're so far apart it's cl-click and apparently can't be manually placed accurately. "

So far apart? No, they cannot be more than half a frame - that is imperceptible. I think that you are doing something wrong.

If the beginning of each clip is within a frame of each other they will snap, unless you turn the magnet off.

No, the guy in the video is still subject to the audio clip movement in 1 frame instruments, you just can't see it because he's zoomed out.

Also, what he did is definitely what I would not have done. He removed the original audio. Wrong move if you want to synchronize an external audio file with the audio of a video.

Right move - put audio and video on separate tracks (see under Program settings or right click Video/Audio on separate tracks or Ctrl+H). Import the audio file and put it on track 3. Select the audio on track 2, Ctrl click to select also the audio on track 3, right-click on track 2, align other audio objects with this track. Done. My 2nd audio is on track 3.

John CB

@Skyline_UK

Hi

. . . . So far apart? No, they cannot be more than half a frame - that is imperceptible. I think that you are doing something wrong. . . . .

I would agree with @browj2's comment, however the discrepancy may also be something you are not doing - what is the file format of the source video?

A MediaInfo analysis of a source clip would help - post the results from the Text view in MediaInfo

John EB

@Skyline_UK

I don't know if a frame of audio measured in time is imperceptible or not as that is down to individual ability but assuming you record at the slowest frame rate of 24fps it equates roughly to standing about 42 feet away from the sound source plus the distance you are actually standing from the sound source. The higher the frame rate, the shorter the perceived distance / delay.

When I say individual ability to perceive, it's possible that someone who does a lot of online gaming will have more of a trained eye than someone who just edits video but we are often stuck at the limits of the refresh rates of our screens despite the frame rate of the video involved. The other variable is the exposure time of each frame. The longer the exposure time, the smoother the movement within video will seem but the sharpness suffers as more motion blur in each frame is captured. The faster the exposure, the sharper the image becomes with less motion blur but the gap left between frames increases and can cause the resulting footage to look stuttery and sometimes not recording the actual strike point of when a sound is produced, actually causing exposures to be made either side of the time relevant event, assuming the motion is fast enough. This has to be accounted for at all chosen frame rates.

In short, video is a series of compromises that when produced well gives a good average account of itself but to get pleasing, useful results it helps to understand the problems associated with the production of the material as well as its editing.

Many thanks all. It's a bit late now so I'll post some more info plus screen shots tomorrow.

@Skyline_UK

Hi

Looking at the video clip I think @CubeAce has hit the nail on the head when he said:

. . . .The other variable is the exposure time of each frame. The longer the exposure time, the smoother the movement within video will seem but the sharpness suffers as more motion blur in each frame is captured. . . . .

It looks like you have a single, almost point, light source in addition to natural daylight from a small window.

What power is the lamp (LED?)?

In addition the light source is reflecting off the guitar burning out that area and at the same time is casting a strong shadow around the thumb which, IMHO, is distracting and may be causing the sight and sound uncoordinated appearance.

I would recommend you use more than one lamp with some sort of diffusion on them or if the ceiling is white bounce them of it to avoid the sharp shadows.

HTH

John EB

@Skyline_UK

Hi.

Can I ask what frame rate you are recording at? During daylight hours I can normally record indoors without having to resort to additional lighting even at 30fps on a small sensor. I have to ask why the audio is out of sync with the video in the first place. Are you recording audio with an external source? Via a laptop? Can you lower your latency settings? How are you recording?

As John has pointed out, the strong light could be causing problems (certainly with even exposure) but I think you are recording audio externally and need to post sync. If you are using an external program on a computer to record audio, it would be easier to add a short delay into the beginning of the audio to the amount you think you are out before exporting the audio.Then the audio would be closer to where you need it when importing into MEP.

Ray.

I'm struggling to understand the problem here. I sync camera sound with voice recorder sound for every project, mainly weddings but also theatre productions and music. Recording at 25fps in PAL land means that the most the audio can be out of synch between camera and external audio is 1/50th sec. That is assuming that the sync is done correctly. As a gigging musician of over 50 years, I would find it impossible to judge 1/50th sec timing difference.

That would suggest that there is a difference in the playback speeds between the camera sound and the external audio leading to drifting of the sync. I have experienced that in the past with slippage between video audio and tape audio, but not when both are digital recordings. Could it be that the video has been copied before editing and there is a slight difference in the frame rate to the original? Also if both the audio clip and video clip are the same length on the timeline when on parallel tracks, then there is no speed difference and the problem is with how the audio is synched at the start of the edit.

I use the excellent auto synching in VPX or also wave form synching by eye and ear at frame level.

Roger

Hi Ray

My Panasonic VR is set at 1080/50.

I make occasional videos for YouTube of guitar tips, demos, etc. and in common with many others I don't use the video camera's sound track except for when I'm speaking. (Poor quality for music, unwanted room ambiance, etc). I have a home recording studio with a high quality mic in front of my Marshall amp, and record the playing into a DAW, in my case either Cakewalk or Studio One. I do three loud claps to act as 'clapperboard' video to aid audio alignment later. These are obviously then deleted from the final video.

In the short video above I played along to a backing track played through the studio speakers, as I didn't use headphones this particular time. So the video camera audio track comprised: my voice intro, the sound from the amp plus the sound of the backing track playing in the room with me.

After ungrouping the imported video clip in MEP I thus have four tracks/objects:-

1. Video only, 2. Audio from the video, 3. Audio of guitar playing only, 4. Audio of backing track.

By adjusting volumes and volume curves, as MEP calls them, I adjust track 2. so that any speaking is audible but I duck the volume down for when I'm playing. I don't duck it to zero, but extremely low so that in the final mix it gives a tiny bit of ambiance. Track 3. from my DAW has been tweaked there for EQ, etc. and then imported to MEP. Track 4. is directly imported from a WAV file.

When I used Serif Movie Plus, alignment was simple - drag the audio tracks to match the three claps. In MEP the audio tracks can only by aligned subject to the frame snapping, which although fine is not fine enough for me.

I've tried demos of three other video editing programs this week and all have free dragging of tracks, some with a snap option that is able to be turned off.

I hope that sheds more light on things, and thanks for your input, much appreciated!

John

@Skyline_UK

Hi John,

Did you try synchronizing the other tracks with the audio from the video like I suggested (right-click align)?

If your video is recorded at 50fps, then the most that you will be out is 10ms (half a frame). I think that the problem is that you're trying to do it visually and not getting it right.

Make sure to have the audio/video on separate tracks to visually see the transient on the audio part. Turn on the Mixer. Align the other audio tracks visually with the waveform of the video-audio track.

Have you played back with all tracks or the video-audio plus each of the other audio tracks, in turn? Sound ok?

The European standard, from what I understand, is +5/-15ms early/late, and you should be able to get within this.

John CB

@Skyline_UK

Hi John.

If you haven't already, try this and click on the blue highlighted 'Move Object Contents'.

Notice I've made the audio track below as large as I can.

You should then see a white symbol appear (Similar to the one I had to draw in) when you move you mouse cursor over the track and follow the instructions in the image below.

I hope that helps.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray

. . . . 'Move Object Contents'. . . . .

AFAICS this still snaps to single frames in MEP.

John EB

I can't see where that 'Move Object Contents' button is.

@Skyline_UK

Hi

Referring to your image above - click the 3rd button to the right of the one highlighted in blue on the ellipsis ( ... ) the drop down should then open as shown in @CubeAce first image.

HTH

John EB

Many thanks, I got that cursor to appear, but left or right clicking did nothing at all. I notice in the icon's selector it mentions Alt+Shift+6 but that did nothing either. 😖

@Skyline_UK

Hi John.

That's odd. Alt+Shift+(numerical)6 combination played the timeline on my machine. (Using the top row 6 with combination did nothing.) I normally just right click the icon with the mouse.

Out of interest I placed one of my video cameras about two feet in front of me and used the inbuilt mic to record me clapping in my workroom in 4K 50fps. I then placed the clip into MEP to see where my hands first met and where the audio spike came in the timeline.

Played back, it sounded and looked in sync to me even though the temptation would be to move it if I looked at the timeline. My speakers are about three and a half feet in front of me either side by about the same amount.

Ray.

@Skyline_UK

Hi

You click and drag with the left mouse button.

Note - if the audio object is full length then it cannot have its content moved, it has to be trimmed - see the video example below.

HTH

John EB

Yes, I can do that. But when you zoom in the movement is still only in whole frames. Here's another video from a later take and I've left the sticks count in audible. You can clearly hear a flamming effect as the video and its sound is running a third of a frame ahead of the sound tracks. Yes, not a lot but enough to make things look slightly out of time.

@Skyline_UK

High John.

I agree, the sound sounds slightly ahead of the finger movement. (I had to look very hard)

Can you put up another version of that clip but move the audio back by four frames please?

[EDIT] Lovely playing by the way. (from someone that really struggles)

The sound is definitely ahead of the video, but by considerably more than 1/3 frame. I would agree with CubeAce to move the audio back 3 or 4 frames. If it was 1/3 of a frame only I really don't think you would see or hear the difference.

Roger

@Skyline_UK

Hi,

Did you do any of the things that I suggested?

If you are trying to align your clips using the visual cues in the video, you will most like not succeed.

Align the visible transients of the audio clips with the visible transients of the audio belonging to the video.

Also try the right click alignment with the audio of the video - that is what it is for.

Show us a zoom in on the timeline of the audio clips lined up so that we can see the waveforms.

John CB