@1940 @johnebaker

Hi.

If John's explanation does not sound like complete gobbledygook to you and you are following so far then I would suggest using the New Blue Elements Picture Grid plugin for both ease of use and possibly it could be less processor intensive than using several plugins for this use. Less processor intensive as it doesn't need to use additional size, position, zoom, or chroma key to place a video or image into position within the frame.

Depending on how complex the project will get will depend how many of the images and positions you may want to export as individual xmp files for further repositioning. I personally would suggest doing further movements (Sliding groups of images around) as a separate movie within the active project.

The New Blue Elements Picture Grid plugin has several advantages.

You can within the plugin adjust the size and amount of sections you wish to add to your 'grid'. It will help reposition each one you need for you with a simple slider control. You can also zoom in to a section within that grid image and record the movement with the key editor.

Each position added will have to be added to a separate track. You can make and store a preset for that within the plugin.

Then each clip on that track can have that effect added to it.

So a simple 4 x 4 grid will need sixteen tracks plus the audio and background image or video track. I suggest removing any audio from each clip to reduce the load within the project except the main background audio track. That may require you importing the clips with the soundtracks on separate tracks and then cutting them.

I have done a couple of short movies to show you the basics.

VPX 12 in your instance should fair reasonably well or at least better than VPX 14 would on your system in my opinion although others may have a different viewpoint on that particular observation.

The video you posted looks like it was done by a broadcasting organisation or at the least a fully equipped audio visual studio using hardware video mixing desks rather than relying on software. We are talking of equipment costing hundreds if not thousands of Dollars / Pounds here.

Ray.

@1940, @CubeAce

Hi

. . . . If John's explanation does not sound like complete gobbledygook . . . .

Gobbledegook, I ought to be insulted, however I find it very funny 😂 😂 😂

Seriously - using the PiP templates is not adding any further complexity - they are basic preset Size and Position elements, without the need for third party plugins, and can be edited easily.

. . . . Picture Grid plugin for both ease of use . . . .

While I agree that NB Picture grid can do some of the effect and it does have one advantage - borders, it does have some limitations, particularly if you are wanting to animate, add captions/titles*, or use sliding transitions as in some sections of the example @1940 provided. Editing afterwards also means you have to go back into Picture grid as the size positioning it does is not transferred back to VPX Size & Position, it is internal to the plugin.

For example if you want to animate an effect such as seen in the intro here, from 4 - 10 secs, in Picture Grid it is time consuming and not easy, the effect was made just using Size and Position only.

* Picture grid has a strange behavior is you set it up titles the same as for the objects in the grid.

John EB

@1940

Hi Oz,

I took a slightly different approach. As John EB indicated, it looks to me like a repeating collage with transitions, but rather than exporting to mxv and importing the result, I simply used separate movies for each collage and then used that as a nested object on the main timeline (Vegas does not have multiple timelines - they have to use separate projects to do what is quite simple in VPX).

Below is a collage that I purchased from Magix called Honeycomb under Design elements - Complex Geometry, but you can use the template Collages to do something similar.

In Movie 1 (Winter), all I did was place 5 objects on the timeline, each 5 seconds long, then applied the collage. I created a second movie (Summer), and did the same thing. Repeat for more.

In the main movie, I dragged each movie from the Project Temp Folder to the timeline and repeated each just to make the video longer.

I sped up these objects to make the video go a bit faster.

Finally, I applied the Gliding transition (under Transitions Basic) and changed the default settings to Slide Away and gave each a different direction.

Oh yeah, I used the Soundtrack Maker Wizard to add the music, trimmed it and did a fadeout.

It took me about 15 minutes. Creating this message together with images took longer.

You can create your own collage, save it, and reuse it. We have a very powerful and flexible program.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray,

Good one! I don't have NB Elements. Wish I did. You could create the entire effect and save it as a collage.

Are you aware of the nesting feature of VPX?

John CB

@johnebaker

Hi John.

The problem for me with using the VPX or MEP size position is there is no real internal crop function with zoom facility making say a block of four images showing one video clip between them as quarter parts of the image, more difficult without adding the cookie cutter or similar. Plus you would still need a track for each object so at the end of the day the limitation may well be the speed at which the drive/s can keep supplying than many images at once (especially if they are video clips rather than stills). Again, the New Blue Elements Picture in Picture does the same thing as the New Blue Elements Picture Grid plugin but without the automatic grid positioning but this time has the added ability to move the PiP as well as rotate the image in the x,y,z axis along with the ability to move each around the main frame but there is no crop and zoom of each individual block of video.

Whichever way this is done I feel it would be a lot of work (regardless of which Editor is ever used) but as usual there are many ways to do this within both of the programs.

Hi, PinP is fairly easy using the Effects/plugins, Section or Size/Position but the interesting bit for me in the OP's clip is that the main cowboy character often occupies more than one segment at a time,

@Former user

Hi Gid.

It's certainly a lot of effort in software for little reward other than knowing you have done it. 😅

It's why anyone would need to be able to crop size and position inside each block image. (and keep the videos in sync). So not just PiPs, but size, position and crop within some of the PiPs that then would have to be group soloed, and exported to use as an overlay in the next movie. At least that is how I would have to do it as I'm sure I don't have enough CPU cores, ram, vram, GPU bus bandwidth to the CPU, or fast enough data storage to do it in one go.

I count a 26 track minimum to achieve what you see on that video if done in real time. I don't see how it can be done with less. It may be possible to use less tracks but then keeping track of which clip is where at which point in the timeline would get messy.

You saw a lot of similar videos during lock-down between musicians collaborating at home, each sending in an almost synced clip in each for another person to edit. Not as fancy as the one above though.

Ray.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray,

If you have a grid of 28 and you want 28 different clips/photos showing, then you need 1 per track plus a mask between each. If you want a grid, black, white or any other colour, you need 1 more track. If you want a title, add that.

Here is a 28 grid frame. This would go on the highest numbered track. It is a png with transparency, so you only see the grid lines.

For the masks, I made up 28 white squares to match the grid. Now I have to make up the various masks that I want to use by making all but what I want to see white. In Xara, it's quite simple to do.

Rinse and repeat.

In the example below, I have the background on track 1 which will show in the squares where there is no white mask on the other tracks. There are 2 areas with 4 white squares each (tracks 6 and 8).

All I need to do is more masks and add them.

Yes, you will likely have to use size/position to adjust the clip for the size of the mask.

that then would have to be group soloed, and exported to use as an overlay in the next movie.

As I indicated, we're using VPX, not Xara. No need to export, just use separate movies and nesting as I showed in the other clip.

You can't make anything complicated without doing some work. However, once you have made up the masks, you keep them and reuse them.

John CB

@CubeAce 👍 @browj2 That's pretty much what i've been playing with, a grid overlay, but I found the Section + Size/Position in MEP impossible to work with, but just because i had to have a go i tried in Vegas, I made it 8k so i could zoom in & pan without loss (🤷‍♂️) but my PC fans were going all the time just with a few tracks 🤣🤣

@CubeAce

Hi Ray

Hi Ray

. . . . you would still need a track for each object so at the end of the day the limitation may well be the speed at which the drive/s can keep supplying than many images at once (especially if they are video clips rather than stills) . . . .

Agreed, with any method the same amount of data transfer from the drives occurs simultaneously to a plugin or plug-in chain is the same.

. . . . I count a 26 track minimum to achieve what you see on that video if done in real time. . . . .

IMHO this is an example of where breaking up the project in to smaller components ie the PiP collections + MXV, I suggested, works well, It removes processor/GPU load in the 'final project' and editing fatigue trying to manage everything en masse.

John EB

@johnebaker @Former user @browj2 @1940

Hi John.

Breaking the project down into manageable segments would be my first choice for so many tracks as well John.

I like the New Blue Elements Picture Grid plugin for this as there is no need to produce masks or borders separately.

The main downside is not the amount of processing it uses which seems quite light but that the grid always has to be 2x2, 3x3, 4x4, 5x5 etc. As long as titles are placed on higher track numbers they can be over-layered anywhere I would need them. Soloing individual tracks for a later block movement of clips is one possibility but I'm sure there are alternatives. It's that amount of running parallel tracks that is the killer on this one.

My estimate of 26 tracks included a background track and audio track allowing for a nice 6 x 6 grid arrangement.

I haven't tried square clips yet and don't know if that would change the grid layout to something like 6 x 4.

Busy watching F1. 👍

Ray.

[Edit]

My math is atrocious 😳🙄. Needs a 6 x 4.layout.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray

. . . . The main downside . . . . that the grid always has to be 2x2, 3x3, 4x4, 5x5 etc. 

True it has to be on a grid up to a max of 8 x 8, however you can mix 'n match grids if overlapping is allowed.

If you take the single grid approach as shown below based on 8 x 8 grid and no overlapping

Getting the image sizes correct is a matter of how many grid units wide and high - in the case of the top image it is 8 x 2 with the image Position adjusted to 1 x 0.58, the others are adjusted in the same way.

John EB

Hi,

For anyone interested, I mentioned that you can do up one and save it as a collage. See this tutorial (pdf file) by Terry Pinnell.

@Former user

Hi,

...but I found the Section + Size/Position in MEP impossible to work with, but just because i had to have a go i tried in Vegas, I made it 8k so i could zoom in & pan without loss

You lost me here. I don't have any problem with size/position/rotation in the example that I showed. No need to use a section as the mask does that.

What seems to be the problem with SPR?

Why are you zooming in? If you want the better part of a clip in a small rectangle, you would zoom out. No need for a higher resolution. I can understand if you have some very small part of a clip that is even smaller than a grid box, but even then...

@johnebaker

Hi John EB,

Did you try using nesting instead of ex/im of an mxv?

John CB

@browj2 Hi, I wasn't using a mask, I've gotten used to adding an fx mask of some kind in Vegas & forgot that a basic B/W mask is needed or works better in MEP. When i said i was trying a similar thing i was ref to the png grid overlay 👍

@johnebaker @browj2 @Former user @1940

I managed to make a grid that would be 9 x 4 using the New Blue Elements Picture Grid plugin on its own and depending on how big each 'boxed' clip was I'm sure other combinations of grid combinations could be used.

I only managed to run four tracks plus background but they were all 4K 50fps clips.

I feel if some preparation of the clips were done first to make the clips in the boxes used at smaller resolutions and possibly a lower frame rate, that many more could be used at once. The problem of moire did crop up in the lower right clip of the block of four in the background brickwork.

I think on my machine at least, the surprise was not having enough vram that seemed to cause the bottleneck rather than the drive speed. CPU and GPU activity on average was not that maxed out. I think reducing the resolution of each clip to be used first would allow more clips to run at once.

I'm sure most of us realise that clips could be added easily enough in the same position for each track with appropriate gaps or changes of clips where needed would occur.

Ray.

@browj2

Hi John

. . . . Did you try using nesting instead of ex/im of an mxv? . . . .

Not yet, need to have a look at it in more detail, however does that not still put the same load on the CPU/GPU as if the nested movie contents were in the timeline the nested movie was being added to?

@CubeAce

Hi Ray

. . . . The problem of moire did crop up in the lower right clip of the block of four in the background brickwork . . . .

This is going to sound counter intuitive, adding a small amount of gaussian blur to the clip with the brickwall, when it is shrunk the blur may help reduce the moire - you will need to play with the blur amount settings to get the amount right without affecting the image/video drastically.

John EB

Wow! Oh my, you guys are something else !

Thank you so much for your time and expertise.

On first read my head is spinning ! I'll have to get a cuppa, find some sun and try and absorb it all.

I guess it does prove all roads can lead to Rome, with all the methods mentioned here.

Can't wait to experiment !

@browj2 In Vegas tracks can grouped as Parent/child, the parent track then controls the child tracks, so you can pan & zoom around the screen & all tracks move in unison, if that makes sense,

There was a post in Vegas forum asking if you add four 4k images to a 4k timeline as PinP quarters, the four images would become 1920 x 1080 FHD images, then zoom in on one of the quarters, are you upscaling from FHD TO 4K & so poss losing quality or are you just returning the FHD quarter back to 4k, the replies differed & seemed controversial that's why i was zooming in on an 8k project, each quarter would still be 4k, it was a test,

As far as understand in MEP you can only zoom in/enlarge 1 event at a time, PinP is downscaling the media to fit in each quadrant so this 'upscaling' when zooming doesn't occur, it is just returning the media to it's orig size,

@johnebaker

Hi John.

I only added that clip to show the problems that can occur when reducing larger resolutions downwards with any close reoccurring patterns. Clothing is another example, as can be blinds, roof tiles, etc. Just something to watch out for and cure or avoid as you know.

@1940

There are numerous ways of getting any effect done. It doesn't always need a dedicated plugin and can be done with additional steps and a bit of imagination as John CB has demonstrated. Dedicated plugins can save additional steps and allow a faster workflow but that doesn't mean effects can't be done without them. Even lower powered machines can do things by splitting up the workload into manageable chunks and combining them in another movie.

Before digital effects were even around, in 2001 a Space Odyssey, on board the Earth Moon shuttle. The pen the stewardess picks up from floating around the cabin was gently stuck to a piece of plexiglass and hung on a bit of string to float in front of the camera. Good lighting and camera angle prevented people seeing the plexiglass and when the stewardess got close enough, just plucked the pen from the glass.

Would that be classed as 'non professional'?

It's only imagination and experience that overcome these obstacles, not the equipment.

Better equipment helps with end quality and speed of use but little else. Remember the more Pro you go, the more technical it gets and the needed learning curves to use a dedicated plugin can actually slow down the creative process as the choices get larger. At which point, slight missteps can often ruin a lot of work where you find yourself having to start an effect over again.

Enjoy your experimenting.

Ray.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray,

The way that I show is about the way that Magix does it. Try doing a Collage using a template and you'll see what I mean.

@Former user

Hi,

You seem to be making it too complicated. Simply use masks.

For your Parent/Child and applying an effect to the parent in Vegas, you can do the same in VPX by nesting as I showed. You apply the effect to the resultant object. Would you like a demo?

@1940

Hi Oz,

Watch this to see how simple it is to make a 4 quandrant collage using two methods in VPX14 - Size/Position and PiP Templates:

John CB

@johnebaker

Hi John EB,

. . . . Did you try using nesting instead of ex/im of an mxv? . . . .

Not yet, need to have a look at it in more detail, however does that not still put the same load on the CPU/GPU as if the nested movie contents were in the timeline the nested movie was being added to?

Probably, but with what I did, it was not really noticeable. I'll try it out later.

John CB

@1940 @johnebaker @Former user @browj2

I've had a play around using the plugins I mentioned plus one or two others and exported sections as mxv files to re-import into a second project to then animate further using size position. The workload was comparatively light going but the video itself doesn't make sense made up of random clips and poorly positioned and sized.

I did it just to see possibilities of sizing, movement, and overlaying.

Ray.