Video Pro X won't normalize 24-bit or 32-bit wav audio objects

Galaxy wrote on 1/28/2019, 10:11 PM

Today I discovered a disappointing lack of functionality in VPX. Here's what happened:

First, exported a stereo wav file from Cubase 9.5 and then dragged it onto the timeline of a brand-new project in Video Pro X.
Then I right-clicked on the new audio object and selected Normalize.

I saw a quick progress bar, but no change in the waveform. When I listened to the audio, there was no increase in volume. But when I dragged the same wav file into Cubase and normalized it there, the waveform enlarged, and the audio became noticeably louder.

To troubleshoot the malfunctioning VPX Normalize feature, I imported the original 44.1 kHz wav file into Audacity, and exported it in three versions: at 16 bits, 24 bits, and 32 bits. Then I dragged each of those wav files into my VPX project. The only one that VPX could normalize successfully was the 16 bit version !!!

That's either a bug or a serious shortcoming. VPX should be able to normalize a 24-bit wav file. So I hope Magix will fix this soon.

In the meantime, does anyone have a workaround?

Thanks.

Comments

emmrecs wrote on 1/29/2019, 4:23 AM

Hi.

In the meantime, does anyone have a workaround?

Yes! Do exactly what you tried, open the wav file in an audio editor and convert it to 16 bit!

That's either a bug or a serious shortcoming

I think this is a matter of opinion but I'm afraid I don't agree! I do quite a lot of audio-only work and record natively in 32 bit FP format, because of the facility that gives me to edit, process, change overall levels etc., without the file clipping or gaining unwanted artefacts of any kind. To use that file in VPX or MEP I would expect to ensure it is converted to 48kHz, 16 bit. If I wanted to Normalise the "raw" 32 bit file, i would do that in the audio editor.

I understand what you are asking for, but audio-for-video is almost "standardised" now as 16 bit; VPX clearly "expects" audio to be 16 bit, not 24 or 32. Perhaps that is an "omission" but most professional video editors (both programs and people) will expect to offload the audio editing/sweetening to an external program, I think.

I think the "bottom line" is that VPX/MEP are both "video editing programs" with some facility for audio enhancement. To expect either of them to offer more "complex" audio facilities would mean, I suspect, some potentially not-inconsiderable rise in purchase cost, to add a facility that very few would ever need to use.

All the above is just my opinion; I will await the comments!!

Jeff

Galaxy wrote on 1/29/2019, 8:45 AM

@emmrecs, thanks for your perspective. It's also worth considering that:

Youtube converts the audio of all uploaded videos 44.1 kHz, afaik, so 48 kHz is not a consistent standard for video.
I imagine Samplitude can normalize 24-bit audio, and if so, it should not be particularly expensive to re-use that code in VPX.
In any case, Magix should state clearly that VPX cannot normalize 24-bit and 32-bit audio. If they had made that clear, I would not have had to waste an hour of my time troubleshooting to figure out why my audio file could not be normalized!

Anyway, thanks for your input.

emmrecs wrote on 1/29/2019, 9:08 AM

@Galaxy

Youtube converts the audio of all uploaded videos 44.1 kHz

Not necessarily so. From this page:

Audio codec: AAC-LC

Channels: Stereo or Stereo + 5.1

Sample rate 96 khz or 48 khz

If YT "requests" 48kHz or 96kHz I see absolutely no reason why it should then convert it to 44.1.

As to the possible inclusion of aspects of the Samplitude engine in VPX, that may not be as "easy" as you appear to suggest, even assuming it can Normalise 24 bit files.

Magix should state clearly that VPX cannot normalize 24-bit and 32-bit audio

Perhaps, but most users of the app will use only 16 bit files, for the reasons I outlined previously. I'm not even sure so-called "industry standards" like Premier Pro can fully handle 32 bit files.

Jeff

Galaxy wrote on 1/29/2019, 9:56 AM

@Galaxy

Youtube converts the audio of all uploaded videos 44.1 kHz

Not necessarily so. From this page:

Audio codec: AAC-LC

Channels: Stereo or Stereo + 5.1

Sample rate 96 khz or 48 khz

If YT "requests" 48kHz or 96kHz I see absolutely no reason why it should then convert it to 44.1.

Thanks for the informative Youtube link. However, Youtube also states this:

"Encoding specifications for music videos: The features described in this article are available only to partners who use YouTube's Content ID matching system. The media files you deliver to YouTube for music videos must conform to these specifications. ... Sample rate: 44.1kHz recommended. Higher sample rates are accepted but not required (for example, 48kHz or 96kHz). Bit depth: 24-bit recommended, 16-bit acceptable."

https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/6039860?hl=en

As well, "If you examine a downloaded video from YouTube and look at the audio stream it's 44.1 kHz regardless of what you uploaded". This is according to a person who claims to have checked. Here's the link:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/mastering-forum/1240078-youtube-sample-rate-music-videos.html

As to the possible inclusion of aspects of the Samplitude engine in VPX, that may not be as "easy" as you appear to suggest, even assuming it can Normalise 24 bit files.

Magix should state clearly that VPX cannot normalize 24-bit and 32-bit audio

Perhaps, but most users of the app will use only 16 bit files, for the reasons I outlined previously. I'm not even sure so-called "industry standards" like Premier Pro can fully handle 32 bit files.

It would be very easy for Magix to inform users of this limitation, and there is no good reason for them not to do so. Anyway, defending VPX won't encourage them to improve. Users need to be critical, not forgiving, if they want Magix to stay competitive.

browj2 wrote on 1/29/2019, 11:21 AM

Hi,

Out of curiosity, did you try Normalize (EBU 128)? I just tried both on a 44kHz 24 bit recording. Regular normalize did nothing, but EBU 128 seemed to have made it louder.

John CB

emmrecs wrote on 1/29/2019, 11:38 AM

@Galaxy

Encoding specifications for music videos

I have deliberately bolded "music". If you are indeed creating "music" videos then yes, 44.1kHz makes some sense, since I suspect most of such videos are designed to "highlight/advertise" a track/artist/band that is also available to buy or download, and CD Red Book Standard is 44.1kHz, 16 bit. In such a case, using the "original" version, without any up-sampling is clearly the best.

It would be very easy for Magix to inform users of this limitation, and there is no good reason for them not to do so.

Possibly so, but I wonder how many users of the product are "hindered" by the lack of 24 bit normalisation? IOW, many (most) users will never need to use any audio format other than 16 bit - in all honesty they may never even think about bit depth - so is a "Warning: will not Normalise 24 or 32 bit files" really such a necessity?

Anyway, defending VPX won't encourage them to improve. Users need to be critical, not forgiving, if they want Magix to stay competitive.

With all due respect to you, I am not "defending" Magix or VPX, merely saying I don't think this lack, as you perceive it, is a serious problem. 😀

I also think Magix will remain "competitive" if they continue to offer a product that "works", continues to "improve" and can be bought at a cost considerably less than most, if not all, of its direct competitors!

Did you try the solution presented in John CB's post?

Jeff

Galaxy wrote on 1/30/2019, 1:34 AM

@browj2 -- Yes, I see what you mean. "Normalize (EBU 128)" does boost the volume on both 24 and 32 bit audio. However, it doesn't boost as much as the regular Normalize function boosts 16 bit audio. I guess that's the nature of the EBU algorithm.

Oddly, the "Normalize (EBU 128)" function does not display the increase in volume until I move my mouse off the object.

Anyway, normalization of 24 and 32 bit audio within VPX is what I'm looking for, and you've suggested a pretty good solution, so I'll mark that as the answer -- though @emmrecs you've also provided some helpful insights which I appreciate as well.

Thanks.

johnebaker wrote on 1/30/2019, 4:45 AM

@Galaxy

. . . . Youtube converts the audio of all uploaded videos 44.1 kHz, afaik, so 48 kHz is not a consistent standard for video. . . . .

So why use 24 or 32 bit audio for video uploaded to YT?

It is going to changed by YT to 16 bit and possibly crush it in the process. Surely it is better to get the 16 bit audio right and reduce the potential for the audio being crushed on conversion.

As an aside - 16 bit audio is generally considered as the optimum number of bits for general audio as you would hear on a computer or other device, increasing the number of bits would not be noticed on these devices and the law of diminishing returns also comes in to play.

24 and 32 bit audio are more for studio recording and editing/manipulation, the final product being rendered down to 16 bit for video or CD.

HTH

John EB

Galaxy wrote on 1/30/2019, 8:36 AM

@Galaxy

Hi

. . . . Youtube converts the audio of all uploaded videos 44.1 kHz, afaik, so 48 kHz is not a consistent standard for video. . . . .

So why use 24 or 32 bit audio for video uploaded to YT?

It is going to changed by YT to 16 bit and possibly crush it in the process. Surely it is better to get the 16 bit audio right and reduce the potential for the audio being crushed on conversion.

@johnebaker

As you no doubt realize, audio bit depth and sampling frequency are entirely independent attributes. And as I noted earlier, Youtube recommends 24-bit audio at 44.1 kHz for their Content ID matching system. That suggests that even if they downgrade the 24 bits to 16 bits for consumer playback -- and I don't know if that's the case -- but even if they do downgrade the bit depth, they still retain a reference copy of the original video in the 24-bit format for the purpose of matching content accurately. Again, here is what Youtube recommends for their Content ID matching system:

"Encoding specifications for music videos: ... Sample rate: 44.1kHz recommended. ... Bit depth: 24-bit recommended"

https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/6039860?hl=en

That's a good reason to use 24-bit audio in VPX.