Hi @johnebaker

These are the only two options I have on my computer. I guess if I had one of my capture dongles with me and plugged it in, the MPEG option would pop up. Its good to see that AVI is available since, as a container, it can hold a number of lossless codecs available.

Its good to know you have both MMS and VPX giving you the capability to use both systems to test capture an analog tape and compare the results to determine if they both result in the washout effect. Unfortunately you indicated previously that you don't have any VHS cassettes? Or 8mm, Hi8 or VHS-C? Of course this is old tech and people have moved on.

Hopefully someone on this forum can conduct the test. 🙂

@Can-Dive

Hi,

I have been having a lot of trouble with the Roxio device, worked intermittently, but not for the last week. I received the new Startech device today. Works great!

I did a quick test of just MXV: DVD Quality, 720x480, i, top field first (default is progressive) 29.97. The results were the same for both MMS2024 and VPX15. And, the image looks like it's the right proportions, with a bit of black around as Al indicated that it should be.

Below is the image of the options with the Startech device loaded. In your image, you have the camera loaded so you don't get the same options. You need the capture device as Video device.

EDIT:

John CB

@browj2

Hi John.

There's no image.

Ray.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray,

It wouldn't load - gave me the red rectangle, then I got it, saved and it disappeared.

Just tried again, even made a new file, the forum rejects the image.

Maybe later.

John CB

@browj2

Hi John.

Been there.Done that. Read the book. Watched the video and bought the tee shirt.

The forum often seems more buggy than the software.🤣🤣

For me it normally takes just over four hours to clear. I do notice it doesn't happen to all contributors during the same periods.

Ray.

@Can-Dive

Hi

. . . . it can hold a number of lossless codecs available. . . .

It can, however, not all combinations of video and audio codec are compatible with many players and MMS/VPX.

See this comment for one example.

John EB

Thanks @johnebaker,

I read the post but in my opinion the OP was really pushing the system's limit. He was trying to export a video over 3 hours long and approximately 1 terabyte in size? I'm not surprised he had issues.

Hi @browj2
Great to see you had success with the Startech. Just curious if it uses a generic driver; What is it called in Device Manager? 

Thanks for conducting the capture test in both MMS and VXP. Interesting result. It contradicts both @RGBguy and @AAProds findings so obviously more testing is required.🤓

The other issue was the 4:3 aspect ratio in MMS 2024.I'm interested to determine if its also in VPX. Below is a link to @AAProds video where he trimmed out the black bars on his analog capture.

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkbXhziF2pP0hNAHjWDzqnSltY_7kw?e=6LxkhU

@browj2 if you import it into VPX, does the preview player show black gaps/bars on either side of the video? If so, using @me_again 1.33 workaround to adjust the aspect ratio, does it fill the 2 gaps? Note: you may need to install the Lagarith codec for it to play on your computer - Link below to developers site.

https://lags.leetcode.net/codec.html

Thanks again for your help. 

@Can-Dive

Hi,

...the Startech. Just curious if it uses a generic driver; What is it called in Device Manager? 

I downloaded and installed the driver from the StarTech site - 2828x.

I may get around to looking at the avi Lagarith later this week.

The image is fine, with small black bars on the sides, proportions look good, so I'm just resizing to remove them and the bottom part.

John CB

Thanks @browj2,

Since I'm in Canada for a couple more weeks, and StarTech being a Canadian company, I decided to get one off of Amazon.ca. So we should have a fourth test regarding this "washout effect" in MMS2024 soon. This implies that other capture software such as Vdub, OBS and AmarecTV will not produce this washout. So the plan is to capture the same video using different software and comparing the results. Should be straight forward.

@RGBguy, @johnebaker, @AAProds, @CubeAce, @browj2, @Former user,

Hi Everyone,

I received my StarTech capture dongle and conducted a number of capture tests. The link below provides 2 comparison videos and a MMS2024 backup of my project for anyone who is interested in reviewing my work.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AkbXhziF2pP0hNEBVvz_obKNzVp1pQ?e=frP9h8

The hypotheses is MMS2021 - MMS2024 produces a washed-out look upon capture of an analog video. This means that other capture programs like AmaRecTV will produce a better result using the same capture device. Unfortunately the OP, @RGBguy did not list what capture device he used.

Regardless, using the StarTech dongle, I captured the same analog video using MMS2024 and AmaRecTV. For the MMS2024 capture I selected MPEG:DVD and for the AmaRecTV capture I used Lagarith. I did not do any post processing of the Lagarith file. I just imported it into MMS2024 and exported the comparison videos as MPEG-2 (DVD).

As a new user, these videos are the first movies I produced with Magix Movie Studio so feel free to provide feedback if I messed up somewhere or should have done things a little differently or more efficiently. I would like to thank @browj2 for his excellent tutorials which allowed me to quickly learn the program.

In summary, my captures were the same using MMS2024 and AmaRecTV. It is true that the capture was washed out but the fault is the Startech capture device, not the software and this has been documented. Specifically for the Startech, it is recommended to reduce the contrast in the Proc amps from 32 to 20. YouTubers; The Oldskool PC and Reasonably British explain this adjustment.

Go to 13:20

Go to 6:50

In the comments section, someone asks Reasonably British what were his exact Proc amp settings;

Brightness 129, contrast 20, hue 64, saturation 32, sharpness 0

Basically he increased brightness from 128 to 129 and reduced contrast from 32 to 20. In my tests I just reduced contrast to 20.

I created 4 test captures;
MMS2024 - Contrast = 32
AmaRecTV - Contrast = 32
MMS2024 - Contrast = 20
AmaRecTV - Contrast = 20

My first comparison video was MMS2024 (32) versus AmaRecTV (32)
My second comparison video was MMS2024 (32) versus MMS2024 (20)

Typically users do not adjust the Proc amps when capturing video; leaving them at the defaults since the results are good. On his YouTube channel, @AAProds conducts an analog capture from a digital camcorder and compares the analog capture to the native DV AVI output. Any difference between the two videos are negligible. He used the IOData GV-USB2.

Watching this video, I thought this could be a method to calibrate the capture device's Prod amps if necessary; capture an analog output from a digital source and compare the results. In his Youtube video, Reasonably British uses the OBS colour monitor plugin to adjust the contrast against a grayscale pattern. Discussing different calibration methods for dongles probably deserve their own post. Suffice to say, I don't believe MMS2024 needs any programming correction for this washed-out effect.  I would suggest the OP's capture device's Proc amps need to be calibrated.  
 

@Can-Dive

It is true that the capture was washed out but the fault is the Startech capture device, not the software and this has been documented.

Nothing's "at fault". The levels have not been set correctly for that particular tape.

The levels should be adjusted pre-capture, or at least checked, because if they are too far off, you'll lose video data (too white or too black) and you'll never be able to retrieve it in Post.

I've found that different tapes sometimes need different levels. I check/adjust my levels using the Virtual Dub histogram as per my website here.

Suffice to say, I don't believe MMS2024 needs any programming correction for this washed-out effect. 

I suspect that you are misreading what the original complaint is about. The issue is that there is a difference between the Magix Preview and what ends up on the timeline after a capture. Magix is either making the captured video washed-out or incorrectly displaying the Preview in the capture window. It can't have anything to do the actual levels settings on the digitiser, or the digitiser itself; my GV-USB2 "does it too". Have a look at the image in my first post on page 1. The difference in levels between the two steps is obvious.

@AAProds,

Thank you for the link to the histogram tutorial. It was excellent and I plan to include it in my analog capture toolkit.
Fortunately, with the Startech dongle, I am able to access the VDub's Proc amps via Video/Levels and adjust them in real time. Therefore no need to install Graphstudio to adjust the proc amps while the video is playing in this instance.😀

With regards to my testing analog capture using the Startech capture device and MMS2024.

...Nothing's "at fault". The levels have not been set correctly for that particular tape...

To clarify, the "fault" is the default proc amp settings of the Startech capture dongle. An experienced user like yourself will meticulously adjust the proc amp setting before capture as demonstrated in your tutorial but a typical user who buys a analog capture dongle on Amazon and just plugs it into a VCR and computer and just starts capturing, using the software provided or their preferred video editor, will not touch the proc amps and just leave them on their default settings. In most cases the default settings are good enough for a typical user. In other cases, the output is not what they expect and in this case the capture looks washed-out.

Unfortunately, @RGBguy did not indicate what capture device he was using. In retrospect, that question should have been asked to help understand his issue. If he had used the Startech dongle at its default proc amp settings, his videos would definitely appear washed-out. I have demonstrated this in my test results and its been verified by two external sources. Startech should release a firmware update to correct the default proc amp settings but in the meantime, one can simply manually adjust the contrast down from 32 to 20 - 22 as a work around.

From this corrected starting point, if the video still looks a bit off, the user would then adjust the proc amp settings visually or use a more accurate method as you described in your histogram tutorial.

...I suspect that you are misreading what the original complaint is about. The issue is that there is a difference between the Magix Preview and what ends up on the timeline after a capture...

I have not misread @RGBguy's issue. The issue is clearly defined in the title of the post; VHS captures, video "washed-out"

The issue is his resulting video, after capture, is washed out. He references the Capture Preview Monitor and says; "it looks great", but he could have easily referenced playing the source tape on his TV and said "it looks great."

The issue is, his proc amps are not set correctly.

...Magix is either making the captured video washed-out or incorrectly displaying the Preview in the capture window...

Fortunately my testing proves otherwise. Magix is not making the captured video washed out. My test captures using MMS2024 and AmaRecTV are indistinguishable in terms of brightness, contrast and colour. In my post, I provided a link to my project, source files and output for you to review.

Likewise. Magix is not incorrectly displaying the Preview in the capture window. This visual phenomenon is simply due to the Capture Preview Monitor's small size. When you reduce the size of an image, the colours appear more vibrant and the image sharper. 

When @browj2 conducted his tests, he reduced the size of the Timeline Preview Monitor to that of the Capture Preview Monitor and noted that the images "look almost the same" and that the image was sharper (blurring was gone). 

...I reduced the Preview monitor to be about the same size as the monitor in the Video recording screen, put them side by side, and they look almost the same. That blurring in the details was gone. So, is it just the increase in size/resolution that is causing the problem? Is that what one would expect anyway?...

My testing concludes that the answer to his question is an obvious; Yes.

 ...It can't have anything to do the actual levels settings on the digitiser, or the digitiser itself; my GV-USB2 "does it too". Have a look at the image in my first post on page 1. The difference in levels between the two steps is obvious...

It has everything to do with the actual level settings on the digitiser. I have looked at your image very closely and what is obvious is that the Capture Preview Monitor is smaller that the Timeline Preview Monitor. Therefore the colours look more vibrant and the image sharper - simply due to the size of the image. Here are some similar screen captures. You can also use Vdub to produce the same visual phenomenon:

In my first post, I was curious what you meant when you indicated that MMS2024 did not handle AVI's properly and you kindly explained the 4:3 issue. Through that discussion and testing of the clips you provided, @me_again was able to provide the 1.33 work around. While this issue is certainly a bug, we now have a temporary solution until the Magix development team can apply a permanent fix.

In the same post I suggested that the OP, @RGBguy, adjust the proc amps to improve the capture. Your response;

...It may do, but then you'd be compensating for an artificial error...

I agree; if there is an error/bug in the system, it should be fixed and adjusting the proc amps would be a "band-aid" similar to the 1.33 aspect ratio work around. My testing concludes that there is no such artificial error or bug.

Can analog video capture be enhanced in MMS2024? Absolutely. Allowing lossless capture would be one enhancement. Having more transparency and options in the deinterlacing algorithm Magix implemented would be welcomed. Allowing the user to enlarge the Capture Preview Monitor would be another enhancement. But within the confines of its current specification, I find no errors or bugs in the MMS2024 analog capture module in terms of the system producing a washed-out video file.

I am happy to review anyone's test results that counter these findings and will change my position if convinced otherwise. 

@Can-Dive

We are going to have to agree to disagree on the Preview vs Timeline difference. The levels (Brightness/Contrast) The gentleman's leg in the capture Preview window are clearly not the same as that on the captured file. Window size will not change that.

Edit: I've just another couple of captures and both the Preview and Captured levels match! I wonder if it was a per-tape issue...

Startech should release a firmware update to correct the default proc amp settings

I've found they change per-tape, so a "default" may not/probably won't work for all captures.

Allowing lossless capture would be one enhancement.

That's a feature of VPX; product differentiation, or you get what you pay for. 👍

@Can-Dive

Hi

. . . . Therefore no need to install Graphstudio to adjust the proc amps while the video is playing in this instance. . . . .

On the contrary, IMHO you should use the Histograms.

When I was teaching digital photography one of the rules I always instilled in my students was never trust your eyes for several reasons:

• The human eye/brain is fully auto adjusting to colour shifts dependent on ambient lighting and what your monitor displays. Additionally colour memory is also bad.
  
  Cameras do not have this wide range of 'auto correction/perception, for example:
  
  At the time of taking, the dress was seen to be white, in the left picture, which is the original shot, it looks, and measures, to be very pale blue, the camera was fooled in to over compensation for the ambient light, which was very yellow. The picture was taken in the 'land of the midnight sun' around midnight when the sun was low on the horizon.
   
• What you see on your monitor/screen will not be the same as other viewers will see on theirs. there will be a wide range of variation in colour casts, brightness and contrast.
   
• The size of the preview can also affect the colours/brightness/contrast you preceive - as you will see looking at the left image as is and when you click it to a larger size, the dress is not so blue as when seen in the smaller image.
   
• The Histogram standardises your recording preventing further 'blowing out' of highlights and ensuring maximum range of contrast, this makes later processing and viewing more consistent.

John EB

Edit: I've just another couple of captures and both the Preview and Captured levels match! I wonder if it was a per-tape issue...

@AAProds, that is great news! Thank you very much for taking the time to complete more testing. It takes at least two independent testers or more to confirm if a bug exits and should be lodged with the developers. I was going to suggest the following tests if you have the time to complete or anyone else who is interested in analog capture:📺

Test 1:
Replicate your screen capture but this time reduce the Timeline Preview Monitor to the size of the Capture Preview Monitor. What does it look like? Share your results.

Test 2:
The second test is more important:

Using the same capture device at its default settings, capture an analog source using MMS2024 and capture it again using Vdub, AmaRecTV, OBS or another video editor. Do the two captures look the same? It doesn't matter if the proc amps are correct or not for the tape. Are the two outputs the same in colour, brightness, contrast etc? Share your results. If they are the same, then we know MMS2024 is capturing like any other capture software. If the captures are different then we may have a problem and need further testing to isolate the issue.

The second test is more important than the first because in the end its all about the output; the captured video file. The Capture Preview Monitor is a bit too small to make accurate proc amp adjustments. Its utility is really just to monitor the capture is actually happening in real time without major timing errors. Its better to do a short test capture and review the actual results or use your histogram method which is even better to determine the appropriate proc amp adjustments.

Once we get a number of tests done, we will have a better idea if this is an actual bug or not. if it is, then we can lodge it with Support and/or the Development team. If its not a bug, we can close this thread and happily move onto other issues knowing we tested this bug to death!☠😊

@AAProds, thanks again for your continued contribution. Certainly the 4:3 aspect bug you discovered and @me_again's 1.33 workaround is commendable. I applaud you both for your effort. I don't think I would have caught that one. That bug should be lodge with the Development team. I'm not sure how the process works at Magix but I suspect, like other software companies, they have a team of volunteer Beta testers who monitor this forum and lodge bug reports on behalf of members. Typically, these individuals have signed a non-disclosure agreement so we don't know who they are but be aware they are monitoring and testing. I believe there is enough evidence for the 4:3 aspect bug to be lodged.

I also really want to nail this washout bug on the head (where did I put that can of Mortein?! 🕷). We may disagree at times but I'm sure we both agree along with everyone else on this forum for the future success of Magix. Working together we can help make it happen! 👍

@Can-Dive

Hi

. . . . Therefore no need to install Graphstudio to adjust the proc amps while the video is playing in this instance. . . . .

On the contrary, IMHO you should use the Histograms.

• The Histogram standardises your recording preventing further 'blowing out' of highlights and ensuring maximum range of contrast, this makes later processing and viewing more consistent.

John EB

Hi @johnebaker,

I absolutely agree with you. Histograms should be used. I think you may have misunderstood my reference to Graphstudio. In his excellent tutorial @AAProds, noted the following;

Using the Startech digitiser, I was able to access the proc amp settings while Virtual Dub was recording; therefore no need to install Graphstudio in this instance;

@Can-Dive

Hi

. . . . I think you may have misunderstood my reference to Graphstudio . . . .

Looks like it, the GraphStudioNext is not the software I was thinking it was, which had similar tools to the Meters in VPX.

John EB

@Can-Dive

I believe there is enough evidence for the 4:3 aspect bug to be lodged.

Already done, I'm in contact with Support re this.