Throw out every line of code in VPX13 and start again - here's why.

Mr-Wood wrote on 7/10/2021, 10:24 PM

Throw out every line of code in VPX13 and start again.

VPX12 is excellent. Stable. Usable. Saleable.
VPX13 is none of those things.

It is not too late to correct this. I have 25+ years of experience (at all levels) in the commercial software industry. This is my assessment and recommendation based on my knowledge of your product and my experience of how it’s built, maintained and marketed.

You need some brutal truth here. Please try to see beyond the criticisms and instead, focus on this chance to turn it around.

The problem:
You have released a product, VPX13, that is not fit for purpose. It is actually the worst product I have seen released in the commercial market for over two decades. It barely qualifies as an Alpha release.
Whether you are aware of it nor not, you now have an unstable (and now unmaintainable) code base. So every minute and every dollar you spend trying to fix VPX13 is bleeding out resources. Looking ahead, this also removes any possible path to eventually get you to VPX14.

Your current testing regime is a complete failure. I can only assume that you have no code testing, no code peer review and no automated testing. Which is terrifying.

The solution:
1. Rollback all VPX13 code changes. Go into your Version Control software and rollback every last line of code that was changed since the last VPX12 patch.

2. Issue a Mia Culpa statement and refunds to recent purchasers of VPX13.

3. Implement a competent testing regime. Outsource it if necessary. Do you have automated testing? It’s never too late to implement it.

4. Your personnel who certified that VPX13 was ‘release ready’ did it for a reason. Find out what that reason was. And stop it from happening again in the future.

5. There are multiple people responsible for the failure of VPX13. At the very least, the Project Manager would be sacked by the end of the business day if this was my business. They have failed at their job.

As for the other parties, they’ll either learn from this, or continue along unchanged, until your company folds.

Unstable code will kill a software business. That's not an opinion.

Comments

emmrecs wrote on 7/11/2021, 7:10 AM

@Mr-Wood

As you have been previously advised, these are user to user forums so, unfortunately, your post is highly unlikely to be seen by any Magix staff, sorry.

I think we all understand your frustration with VPX 13, but we are all fellow-users and have absolutely no control over the decision to release, or otherwise, any new version of the software.

You might wish to raise a support ticket with your concerns, or you might email infoservice@magix.net and explain to customer service what you feel ought to be "improved".

Jeff
Forum Moderator

tpolakov wrote on 7/14/2021, 9:19 AM

Well - Magix employees ( @MAGIX_Redaktion ) post the release news info in these forums, so hopefully they also read the user posts from time to time. Although, I would not be surprised if this was a one way communication only.

I pretty much agree with most of what @Mr-Wood said :(

tpolakov wrote on 7/14/2021, 1:02 PM

Not sure what is happening to Magix, but it almost looks like they are falling apart - the Vegas Movie Studio new features page shows all screenshots from Movie Edit Pro (or Video Pro X). Either they changes the UI completely or they just mixed up the products ;)
https://www.vegascreativesoftware.com/us/newsletter/upgrade-vegas-movie-studio/features/#productMenu

CubeAce wrote on 7/14/2021, 1:15 PM

@tpolakov @Mr-Wood @emmrecs

No, that program is no longer considered a Vegas product. Look at the Vegas forums.They no longer will be answering questions for that release and have told people to come here as there is now apparently no difference between Vegas Movie Studio and Movie Edit Pro.

It looks like changes are afoot.

Interesting to notice that the Vegas forums asked for beta testers for Vegas. I think that shows where MEP and VPX comes in the pecking order of importance to Magix now.

Also interesting to know that on the Magix website it is listed as Vegas.

So the usual mixed messages.

Ray.

emmrecs wrote on 7/14/2021, 1:30 PM

@CubeAce @Mr-Wood @tpolakov

Just to clarify: the new Movie Studio 18 is not a Vegas product, so it is NOT "Vegas Movie Studio 18", just "Movie Studio 18". Apparently it is "built on"/a development of MEP/VdL (according to a message I received from a moderator on the Vegas forum). Its release has caused some degree of consternation to Vegas users, who were apparently unaware of the release and for whom the name is more than a little problematic!

As a result, as Ray has written, this is now the forum for any discussion of this new product, although I think most (all?) of us have yet to actually be able to download and/or use it!

One other point: according to the Vegas forum moderator who messaged me, the Vegas range of video products is the "professional" range, MEP/VPX are not! (I make absolutely no comment!)

Jeff
Forum Moderator

tpolakov wrote on 7/14/2021, 1:30 PM

Wow - this is incredibly confusing.

johnebaker wrote on 7/14/2021, 1:39 PM

@tpolakov, @emmrecs, @CubeAce

. . . . Not sure what is happening to Magix, but it almost looks like they are falling apart . . . .

This may be a simple matter of product rationalisation - there are several products in 3 different ranges which are competing against each other.

I have seen in the news ovre the last 6 months or so, that many companies, are in the process of rationalisation of their products/services, having brought them forward due to Covid.

John EB

tpolakov wrote on 7/14/2021, 3:02 PM

I am all for rationalization - but it's very shady to market a rebranded Movie Edit Pro as an upgrade to Vegas Movie Studio - unless it is able to open old Movie Studio projects (which I doubt, but maybe that's what they did).

CubeAce wrote on 7/14/2021, 3:03 PM

@Mr-Wood @emmrecs @johnebaker @tpolakov

Seeing as Movie Studio 18 and Movie Edit Pro are virtually indistinguishable now I'll bet Movie Edit Pro or Movie Studio will cease to exist within the next two product cycles.

They are even trying to get people who use to use rescue your video tapes to go across to Movie Edit Pro as an alternative. As John EB has pointed out they look like they are slimming down their product lines. You can even cross grade on the latest offer for Movie Studio 18. What I'm wondering is where does that now leave a possible MEP 2022 or will we have to wait until next year?

Hi Jeff.

I have always thought of MEP as a general public type of video editor and VPX for the serious enthusiast and the Vegas products for a more demanding work load with price points set accordingly. After all the average MEP user is not going to fork out for Mocca, Silhouette, Sapphire, Continuum, or any of the equally expensive post production tools that you would find a top Vegas user using for post production. Nor would many have the need for them beyond being nice toys to have.

I am possibly the least surprised person here to see this happening. Nor do I feel insulted at my perceived level of customer from a Magix marketing standpoint. For me, the Magix marketing or their product range is now making a lot more sense.

Ray.

browj2 wrote on 7/14/2021, 9:04 PM

@Mr-Wood

Hi,

I have to disagree with your subject title. Obviously, if VPX12 worked so well, then so should 13 - it's the same program, but, VPX has a new engine and near complete modification of the View/Animation effects so they pretty much threw out the old code and made new code for a part of the program. I would hate to think of brand new code to do the same things that already work - they would probably break most everything. I agree, Magix should never have released the initial version and first two patches; they should have better debugged the program first - tested everything. However, there are marketing people (and upper management) who think differently from programmers.

That said, I have no doubt that they'll fix most problems (just not all of the ones that were on my bug list for VPX12) and VPX13 will make most users happy. I do want the previous bugs fixed, of course.

@tpolakov

Hi,

I am all for rationalization - but it's very shady to market a rebranded Movie Edit Pro as an upgrade to Vegas Movie Studio - unless it is able to open old Movie Studio projects (which I doubt, but maybe that's what they did).

See this Help screen in the Vegas Forum that indicates that Magix is already working very hard to extend the import feature to enable the import of full projects done in older versions of Vegas Movie Studio.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray,

VPX is considered by Magix and priced as a pro product. The price is the same as for Vegas Pro Edit - 299USD (regularly 399USD). Vegas Pro is 449USD (regularly 599USD) and the only difference is that you get Sound Forge Pro14 with it - nothing else. Vegas is offering version 18 with a free upgrade to 19, obviously because it will be out in about one month. I don't want to go into the differences between the two programs (VPX and Vegas) but there are pros and cons of each.

Vegas Pro Suite is 799USD and for that you get the same program (Vegas Pro Edit) plus a bunch of third party software that may or may not work in future versions of Vegas (this has been a regular complaint on the Vegas Forum).

Finally, there is Vegas Post Suite which is Vegas Pro, Vegas Effects (actually HitFilm FX afaik), Vegas Image (an image editor) and Sound Forge Pro 14. No third party software. All for 699USD.

So, Vegas is actually similar in function and feature to VPX. Vegas has more third party software available ( with a a caveat) and has created it's own Image Editor, I guess. I don't see this product line as anything more than what we can do with VPX and an external image editor ( I use Xara so that I can actually draw on the screen and make animated masks plus PaintShop Pro) plus Sound Forge Pro or SF Audio Cleaning Lab or Samplitude. There is a market for the HitFilm FX but how many of us even use many of the third party effects that we already have?

Vegas Movie Studio has reached the end of its life and Magix is creating a version of MEP that will read Vegas Movie Studio files. To be clear, the new Magix Movie Studio is MEP (VDL in Europe).

EDIT: Just read a post from a member of the Vegas team who said that it was they who wanted to discontinue Movie Studio, not Magix, as they "simply did not have the resources to support both VEGAS Pro and VEGAS Movie Studio. It should have been evident that this was the case as the quality of both products has suffered drastically in the last few years because our team was stretched so thin trying to work on both of them." Magix wanted to keep MS but came up with the solution in hand for MS users. Wow! Now that is a decision that should make sense to users. We have to keep in mind that trying to keep multiple flavours of the same product is going to require the use of the same programmers, thus reducing overall effectiveness.

The problem that Magix/Vegas will probably have to resolve is what to offer existing Vegas Movie Studio users to upgrade to Vegas Pro Edit. The current upgrade price from Vegas Pro is 149USD and I presume that this will apply to Movie Studio users as well. They may want to sweeten the pot.

On the other side, if one is going from MS to MMS (aka MEP) then the user is wanting to stay with a less costlym but excellent commercial program. Their pricing is off, IMHO, as they should include an upgrade to MMS2022 since MEP2022 is undoubtedly almost ready to be released.

Bottom line, this move solidifies the future of MEP, and, by relationship, VPX. VPX13 will be fixed.

We have gone way off topic.

John CB

Reyfox wrote on 7/15/2021, 4:14 PM

@johnebaker I've been reading in both forums about what is happening. To have an editor that you've used and "loved" come to an end is disappointingly sad. I feel for them. But I also understand Vegas in wanting to concentrate on Vegas Pro. In time, we will see if this pans out with a better product from Vegas.

I've read comments from people who have no idea of what MEP or VPX are and what they can do. Each software brings something to the table the other doesn't. But you are right, with Vegas Pro, I personally have Boris Continuum 2021, Mercalli 5 Suite, Sapphire, Ignite Pro 5, NBFX and several other products developed for Vegas. BUT.... a lot of the OFX do appear in VPX. Vegas Post uses the latest version of Vegas Pro and a better integrated Hitfilm Pro for the VFX, like After Effects for Premiere. Vegas Image also is based on FXHome Imerge Pro with the integration with Vegas Pro. So if you want to have a better idea of the Vegas Post software, you can take a look at Hitfilm Pro (not Express) and Imerge Pro. Vegas has for some time been able to open a Hitfilm Pro project on it's timeline along with the ability to send an open project into Hitfilm. Now the integration is better and more "seamless".

Where the confusion will come is whether there will be a MMS and MEP, or will MEP now become MMS.... :D

Now we have gone way way off topic.

But on topic, I always never early adopt and wait until things become more stable before deciding on upgrading. The frustration of something not working as it should can make you start thinking that no one tested the software. I beta test for 3 software companies and the US Army. The commercial companies answer to "bean counters" first. They will release a product that the developers and beta testers say isn't ready with "we'll patch it later... this is the right time to make the money". So when I read comments blaming the devs/beta testers as being incompetent, that just isn't true most of the time.

swdw973 wrote on 7/25/2021, 8:09 AM

Regarding a couple of things mentioned. I have VPX12 and Vegas Post 18. Was using just Vegas Pro but just upgraded to Post.
First on pricing. No Magix VPX is NOT priced for the pro market, but the prosumer market. You need to compare the pricing to Vegas Pro NOT Vegas Pro edit. Edit is missing a number of tools found in Video Pro X, but has way more editing features and a LOT more control over hardware options, and the audio editing is more robust than VPX. But again, the one to compare the pricing to is the mid level package.

Why do I own both? Because one resides on my laptop provided by my company and I use it for editing tutorial videos I make for their youtube channel. A couple of videos went to stave off possible lawsuits, where the client was sure it was our equipment when it was their systems that were not set up correctly. I was able to film, take pictures, edit and add text in the field and provide an instant feedback to the customer and the company. I owned it MANY iterations ago (as in- the first version), and occasionally update it, but not every version, since I've used it for videos for work.

I use Vegas for more complex videos I 've done for friends who make DVD's and videos they sell through their sites. I was able to get into it dirt cheap at VP8, and have updated it every 2nd or 3rd release since then when the update price drops. (just did the VP18 +VP19 Post upgrade option)

So I understand the differences between the 2 programs.

I stepped up from Vegas Pro to VP Post at home because it was cheaper to pay the extra $100 for all the additional filters, effects, and tools, than it was to go to 3rd parties and buy add ons or plug ins.

Plus, I can be a feature junkie 😁 (No one else has that problem, right? 😜 )

Now then, with all the hubbub about Video Pro X 13, I will not upgrade to it. And for one other reason. It seems that the upgrade for both Vegas pro and VPX after a very stable release is always bug ridden. Has been a trend for years and is one of the reasons I don't upgrade on every release w/o a specific reason.

Regarding Mr-Wood's post. I've been both a alpha and beta tester for different software over the years. It's my opinion that everybody's commercial release these days is no better than an early beta 15 years ago. These days, it's all about getting it out the door and fixing it once the income starts being generated.

browj2 wrote on 7/25/2021, 9:47 AM

Given that we keep finding new bugs (errors) almost everyday, I'm about to change my reply to the OP's subject line "Throw out every line of code in VPX13 and start again" to "that is exactly what they did, and this is the sad result." Each version has had its problems, but this is the worst that I can recall.

I agree that it's usually upper management and marketing who decide to rush out unfinished versions and the programmers get blamed by users for the problems. However, I can't understand why the programmers keep breaking things that worked in the previous version.

@swdw973

Once again, going off-topic, about the pricing, the only difference that I can see between Vegas Pro Edit and Vegas Pro is that the latter has Sound Forge Pro 14 to justify the difference in price. VPX does not have this nor does it presently have anything else. The Upgrade comes with Mercalli V5 Suite and Action VXF Pro X Pack. Thus I see the pricing of VPX and Vegas Pro Edit as the same.

I have to disagree with you about the audio editing of Vegas being more robust. I say that without having gone into it in any great detail in Vegas, but what I found was that it was about the same as in VPX except that you can't put envelopes on audio objects, only on the track in Vegas, although there is a workaround; you can in VPX. You can put effects on events (audio objects) in Vegas but not in VPX except partially through Aux Sends to the Mixer FX tracks.

There is one nice feature in Vegas of managing takes when using the external editor. VPX is supposed to have something like it, but not as manageable, and did when I used Magix Audio & Music Lab, but they've broken it and not just in VPX13.

The one thing that I really dislike about Vegas and it's probably because I didn't understand something, is Normalize; it's a switch, on or off. That is not how it's supposed to work. Normalize should just change the output to be louder (or softer) with the max at 0 db and you should be able to see this. I don't see what the change is in Vegas, but I do in VPX/MEP. Then you can do what you want with that at the object level. In Vegas I don't know what happens if I could modify the volume of the loudest parts - with the switch on, would it keep boosting the max to 0db? If I lower the volume of the object, does the switch override it and put it back to 0? Strange way to do it.

On the Vegas forum, it was mentioned that audio editing has not been touched for years and has lagged behind other products. You may want to watch my two tutorials on Everything Audio in MEP/VPX. You may find some surprises. What I have found is that most users don't know what is available in VPX for audio editing.

John CB

Evo wrote on 7/25/2021, 10:56 AM

Throw out every line of code in VPX13 and start again.

VPX12 is excellent. Stable. Usable. Saleable.
VPX13 is none of those things.

It is not too late to correct this. I have 25+ years of experience (at all levels) in the commercial software industry. This is my assessment and recommendation based on my knowledge of your product and my experience of how it’s built, maintained and marketed.

You need some brutal truth here. Please try to see beyond the criticisms and instead, focus on this chance to turn it around.

The problem:
You have released a product, VPX13, that is not fit for purpose. It is actually the worst product I have seen released in the commercial market for over two decades. It barely qualifies as an Alpha release.
Whether you are aware of it nor not, you now have an unstable (and now unmaintainable) code base. So every minute and every dollar you spend trying to fix VPX13 is bleeding out resources. Looking ahead, this also removes any possible path to eventually get you to VPX14.

Your current testing regime is a complete failure. I can only assume that you have no code testing, no code peer review and no automated testing. Which is terrifying.

The solution:
1. Rollback all VPX13 code changes. Go into your Version Control software and rollback every last line of code that was changed since the last VPX12 patch.

2. Issue a Mia Culpa statement and refunds to recent purchasers of VPX13.

3. Implement a competent testing regime. Outsource it if necessary. Do you have automated testing? It’s never too late to implement it.

4. Your personnel who certified that VPX13 was ‘release ready’ did it for a reason. Find out what that reason was. And stop it from happening again in the future.

5. There are multiple people responsible for the failure of VPX13. At the very least, the Project Manager would be sacked by the end of the business day if this was my business. They have failed at their job.

As for the other parties, they’ll either learn from this, or continue along unchanged, until your company folds.

Unstable code will kill a software business. That's not an opinion.

Totally agree. Glad I didn't upgrade my update plan.

Also very glad I was able to roll back to the version 12, as it works fine.

How V13 could have ever been released can only be part if what I call "the collapse of society".