@CubeAce, @AAProds

Hi Ray, Al

. . . . I notice in your converted file the frame rate for video states 50fps whereas the original file has it at 25fps . . . .

An interesting conundrum, I converted the same file using Al's procedure and get this from MediaInfo

Complete name                            : Z:\MAGIX\DVD_BD_Projects\Test Projects\Rick video issue\Converted GN&GLuck AAC.mp4
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : Base Media
Codec ID                                 : isom (isom/iso2/avc1/mp41)
File size                                : 1.63 GiB
Duration                                 : 1 h 43 min
Overall bit rate                         : 2 263 kb/s
Frame rate                               : 50.000 FPS

Codec ID/Info                            : Advanced Video Coding
Duration                                 : 1 h 43 min
Source duration                          : 1 h 43 min
Bit rate                                 : 2 037 kb/s
Maximum bit rate                         : 2 125 kb/s
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Active Format Description                : Full frame 16:9 image
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 50.000 FPS
Original frame rate                      : 25.000 FPS

File properties in Windows Explorer also gives 50 fps, however MMS gives this when you add the file to a project with a different frame rate

Added:

AviDemux has incorrectly written the Fields per second of the original video as the Frame rate, and the true frame rate as the Original frame rate in the header.

I converted a good MTS file from my old camera, and both MediaInfo and File Properties give the same result as the clip Rick supplied above.

John EB

@johnebaker

AviDemux has incorrectly written the Fields per second of the original video as the Frame rate

I've reported this on the AVIDemux forum.

@CubeAce

I notice in your converted file the frame rate for video states 50fps whereas the original file has it at 25fps.

Could that be the cause of the problem in the original file? That the interleaved images are being read as one frame?

Ray, both versions are 25fps (frame rate); AVIDemux can't read the MTS header properly.

Rick's issue is the messed-up header of the original MTS, which Magix can't deal with. The MP4 version from AVIDemux runs like clockwork.

It always intrigues me that the AVC and the AAC/MP3 doesn't change but a program cannot open a file simply because of the extension/header. MKV and MOV is another example. And the silliest of them all, 3gp (I think it was). Simply rename it to MP4 and Magix will accept it. Weird.

johnebaker wrote on 11/15/2023, 10:45 PM

There are some programs which allow you to put oddball video and audio streams into particular file formats, eg mkv, mp4, AVI, with encoding formats that are not in the standards for those formats.

In the case of your recording it is not standard for the container file format ...

Thanks, John. I didn't know that formats could be mucked around with like that.

I record my free-to-air TV on Thumb-drive using a Digitec DG-HD0910 set top box (also as old as dirt). It is not sophisticated enough to change file formats.

What I can't figure out is that some of the MTS files it generates have worked just from with Movie Edit Pro and some have not. Some have not even worked with Video Easy. If these variations are not the 'fault' of the STB then the variation must be in the TV signal itself and I certainly would not have expected that.

@AAProds

Hi Al.

I don't confess to even guess as to what is going on and I think in the past (and correct me if I am wrong) You said that AVIDemux does not re-encode the video files but I also see a not too considerable size difference in the converted file. 2Gib on the original compared to the AVDemux version at around 1.6Gib. So AVIDemux is producing a smaller file (or maybe the correct sized file that is also misread in the original file as being larger) and playable whereas the original file is trying to be read but possibly can't find missing frames or content? I'm just at a loss as to what is going on.

I can't find a manual for the Digitec dg hd0910 set top box but its nearest version, the DGTEC DG-HD0810 seems capable of producing more than one type of file.

I don't know if that information is useful or not.

Ray.

@CubeAce 

 Hi, I get 1.99GB & 1.8GB, maybe your comment is a typo?

I'm curious whether the Text & Menu bit at the bottom of the MediaInfo that is on the orig mts could interfere with loading into MMS, it's not in the Avidemux MP4 MediaInfo? When played on MCP player there's Subtitles,

@AAProds

Hi Al.

MediaInfo gives me

Complete name                            : C:\Users\Ray\Downloads\GN&GLuck_.mts
Format                                   : BDAV
Format/Info                              : Blu-ray Video
File size                                : 2.00 GiB
Duration                                 : 1 h 43 min
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 2 775 kb/s
Frame rate                               : 25.000 FPS

Windows says 1.99GB.

I do seem to have got your AVIDemux size wrong. it was

General
Complete name                            : H:\Magix Info\Rick\GN&GLuck_ copy copy full.mp4
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : Base Media
Codec ID                                 : isom (isom/iso2/avc1/mp41)
File size                                : 1.81 GiB
Duration                                 : 1 h 43 min

There can be as far as I'm aware, differences in reported file sizes depending on the cluster sizes of data on a given drive but that's still just under 200MBs. I'm not sure if a difference of roughly 10% is within an error reporting size or not, or something else within the file has changed.

It is still more curiosity from my perspective about file structures that produce problems and why the 'conversion' loads easier if the file is smaller. To me it looks as if the Editor is looking for and not finding additional content. That to me would explain the very slow loading time of the original file.

Also in the original Topic about thumbnails not being shown in the import section. I get this a lot with RAW files, PSD files, and Tiff images as well as some mov files that can be loaded into the program and played but cannot display a thumbnail. However those particular files also don't show thumbnails in Windows explorer as well. The thumbnails do exist as they show in the programs that produced them but not outside of those programs. To me, the fact that those files load / display correctly and can be further manipulated is nothing short of a miracle.

Ray.

 

MediaInfo gives me

Complete name                            : C:\Users\Ray\Downloads\GN&GLuck_.mts
Format                                   : BDAV
Format/Info                              : Blu-ray Video
File size                                : 2.00 GiB
Duration                                 : 1 h 43 min
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 2 775 kb/s
Frame rate                               : 25.000 FPS

Windows says 1.99GB.

I do seem to have got your AVIDemux size wrong. it was

General
Complete name                            : H:\Magix Info\Rick\GN&GLuck_ copy copy full.mp4
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : Base Media
Codec ID                                 : isom (isom/iso2/avc1/mp41)
File size                                : 1.81 GiB
Duration                                 : 1 h 43 min

@CubeAce Yep that's the same as mine 👍

@AAProds @johnebaker @Former user @rickduley

The original file does not play properly in Windows Media Player.

But does play correctly with Windows Film and TV, DVD Player and VLC media player

So I'm wondering that we know that to export mp3 files from the Magix programs you need to install Windows media player. What if this wrapper is needing to use another part of Windows media Player to use within MMS / VPX? What if this is actually a Windows problem?

I'm trying to get original the file to load currently and it is causing a lot of disk use. High read speed and low write speed.

Ray.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray

. . . . I don't confess to even guess as to what is going on . . . .

Avidemux when set to copy creates a new file with the appropriate, and nearly correct data and header structure, copies the video and audio streams as is, the menu and text streams are not copied.

The AVC encoding, which is the standard for Blu-ray players, is a subset of the MP4 standard with more restrictive codec support as I previously mentioned and device related constraints.

. . . the DGTEC DG-HD0810 seems capable of producing more than one type of file . . . .

I found the same manual, however if you look up the codec profiles they are h.262 not AVC (h.264 subset) which the 0981 is producing.

The 0981 should, when set to 1080i, should follow the video and audio codec standards for the file format. This it is partly doing, however there should be no MP2 audio stream, only a PCM, AAC or AC3 encoded audio stream.

The video stream has M=4 N=24 which is 'normal' ie it is not Long GOP, what initially gave me some concern, was the low overall bitrate is 2775 kb/s. however, this may be a lot lower due to the bulk of the video being monochrome, ie minimal chrominance signal.

The problem with MMS (and VPX) struggling is the audio streams - remove them and the video plays fine.

@Former user

MMS should, and does, ignore the text and menu streams.

John EB

@johnebaker @AAProds @Former user @johnebaker

Hi John,

The original video took well over one and a half hours to load into my copy of MEP 2022.

I found the playback really choppy. No audio. Changed audio to track 2 as suggested but at that point still didn't hear anything starting the playback at random points along the timeline.

Then I noticed and changed the following,

The file says top field first so I tried changing it.

Also checked and made changes here.

Playback is now at normal speed but audio is way too slow. Can no longer get MEP to go back to track one to check.

Audio is therefore well out of sync with much missing. It doesn't sound like the audio description track but the main audio track witch is not surprising considering the non standard frame rate for that audio track given in the MediaInfo file but even then that is either misreporting or yet another weird thing is happening I can't figure out how to correct. Apart from that the video portion is playing really easily, even on full CPU only use or Microsoft WARP only or any combination of settings I can come up with.

Ray.

@johnebaker @AAProds @Former user @rickduley

Update.

I closed the project and reopened it. It loaded almost immediately and played as before.

I then tried changing the audio channel again which appears to now be trying to do except it is now back to using the C: Drive again as before. Lots of disk reading at around 535MB/s but write speed at max 1.1MB/s and min of 43.1KB/s. Will wait to see what happens.

Ray.

@johnebaker @AAProds @Former user @rickduley

Woah! So three hours later there was no audio on track one I could get to play. Also the video stuttered again. In the audio object I selected properties and in the sampling section changed it to match the sampling rate MediaInfo reported. No change. Video was still stuttering on playback with no audio.

Changed it back to Audio stream 2 and got the sound back as before with it playing slow. This was an almost instantaneous application within MEP with no waiting for a re-render as I had to do with getting audio stream one to come back. video played normally and smoothly again. I went to select properties and again matched the audio sampling rate to match the audio sampling rate as shown in the media info data. This shortened the soundtrack and the soundtrack could not be lengthened but.

So, still have no clue as to why what happens when the whole of the audio is definitely there but can't be played.

It would seem the super slow audio is as much as there is, so the whole amount of audio is not present when loaded into the project. The project can be saved and loaded again but this time in a fairly quick and ready to run amount of time. (seconds). I estimate only about one seventh of the audio track is there. Fidelity and noise levels seem good.

One problem is that MEP 2022 is not saving the audio file alterations I made and have to be reset each time the project is reopened. Otherwise all good if you only need the first section of the video 🤣😉😏.

Ray.

I think it is safe to say that MTS is borked. Remuxing it (saving into a different container) allows quick access to video and the two audio streams (although only the AAC stream works).

On the subject of audio tracks vs streams, what are people's thoughts on the terminology used by Magix?

Given that the Magix editor has timeline 'tracks", and that an audio track is on one line, I think that in the menu, the term "stream" would be more appropriate, because you are selecting a particular stream, to go into the single track as an audio object. You aren't selecting a "track", per se, because that's what the timeline line is, and there's only one audio track.

@AAProds

Hi Al.

Did the audio in the converted file play all the way through in MMS?

Can a file that can be played correctly in more than one media player be said to be borked?

That's a tough one to call I think Al as some files may well have more than one audio channel with audio.

If you were working with a wma export or import a wma file that is still capable of mixing down to a 5.1 surround sound format or indeed import such a file from a DAW you would be dealing with audio channels that could be made up of quite a few tracks.

In that instance all tracks are used and exported to be played together so would that be considered streams?

YouTube does accept and support surround sound and wma.

I don't know anyone personally that does this apart from myself once a while back as an experiment just to see how the mixer worked in MEP / VPX and whether it exported the file with 5.1 surround sound.

Ray.

@AAProds

On second thoughts, such a file would only have the one sound file with multiple channels. Not the same as in this instance.

Could the program differentiate? Would the drop down offering be the same?

In VPX it would have imported all the audio (I think but haven't checked)

Ray.

@CubeAce

Ray, yes, the AAC track played with no issues (in the MP4 version of the movie). MMS generated a waveform. For the MP2 version, no waveform and no audio.

That's a tough one to call I think Al as some files may well have more than one audio channel with audio.

That's what I was getting at. That MTS (and the remuxed MP4) has two audio streams: the Mp2 and the AAC. When choosing the one you want in MMS, it seems to me "stream" would be a better term than "track". To clarify, this is only for "import" onto the timeline, not export.

@AAProds @johnebaker @Former user @rickduley

Could the file be deliberately recorded that way to try to prevent further editing / copying? Early DRM attempt?

Ray.

@CubeAce

It's either a Conspiracy and a c@ckup... Normally it's the second one! 😀 👍 (pardon the "French").

@AAProds

HI Al.

@Former user

Gid said he was getting text from the video and I know that mp3 files can hold and use a lot of text. Maybe that is what is in the MP2 track. That I have no way of producing that myself so can't verify although I can add a lot of text to an mp3 file. That and the audio tracks both have different frame rates made me think think this is deliberate.

DVDs, CDs, VHS recorders, TV boxes have all tried at some point in the past to prevent further copies from being produced or edited. Even now without using the app for Netflix on a smart TV you will not get a high definition stream if you pay for that option without the use of that app from the complaints I've seen on line, People do not like using the app because it collects data.

The point is all attempts are in the end failures. I think in the end it will come to be everything will be only available via paid for streaming content.

I like conspiracies. They are more fun 🤣

Ray.

@AAProds

@CubeAce

@johnebaker

@Former user

@emmrecs

I have been following your discussion with interest — as much as I can since most of it is way over my head. I now have the idea that MTS is a files format with so many potential faults that software developers have given up on trying to wrote for it. That means that I am consigned to using the work-arounds I already have — or purchasing a Set Top Box which records to Thumb Drive in MP4 or some other reliable format.

Thank you all for taking my issue to heart and investigating the problem. It has been an interesting ride.

One can only hope that MAGIX take the issue of the accessibility of the GUI as seriously. There is certainly room for improvement in MMS2024P! 😏

@rickduley

Hi Rick

. . . . I now have the idea that MTS is a files format with so many potential faults that software developers have given up on trying to wrote for it.  . . . .

IMHO, this is putting the cart before the horse - the video standard is what all software, and hardware, developers should work too. If the standards specify select codecs are supported, that is what they must work to.

I think Ray has hit the nail on the head. with the comment: ' Early DRM attempt'.

This has a ring of truth about it, as only the hardware the recording was made on and other TV Box devices using the same method would be able to play back the video..

John EB

Nah, I reckon it's just an early-model STB with poor (by today's) standard video recording firmware. I had one that would record onto a SD card and I put that into my computer and it read OK, IIRC.

Rick's MTS was a simple free-to-air recording of Ozzie SBS; as one would now do with a TV tuner stick; my Hauppauge captures in TS format.

The fact that it can be so easily converted to a "playable" format in an editor indicates to me there's no DRM intent.