Thanks Jeff, greatly appreciate that timely warning!

Apart from the occasional issue which I've put down to over-heating (a good air dust-off has usually cured it), my current 512 MB nVIDIA GeoForce 8800GT has been very reliable, so I was already tending to favour another separate nVidia card.

I'm coming to today's PC hardware scene very poorly informed! Could you clarify a point about the CPU labeling please? What is the meaning of the 6700 in 'i7 6700K' and how does it relate to your CPU speed of 4GHz?

Hi Terry

. . . . What is the meaning of the 6700 in 'i7 6700K' . . . .

The Intel identification / model system is based on the following:

The i3, i5 or i7 refers to the particular type of processor,  the main difference being features and performance.

Eg the main difference between an i5 and i7 is the internal cache  which is higher in an i7 vs i5.  This increases performance, however there has been some debate whether the extra cost vs the performance increase is really worth it.

The four digit nos are broken down as follows:

1st digit  = processor generation  so the 6 means this is a 6th generation product

the remaining three digits are a 'catalogue number'  also called a SKU

The K indicates the the processor is unlocked, so it can be overclocked, a T suffix indicates it is a power optimised processor.

Graphics cards

Personally I avoid using extra graphics cards, I am not into gaming, and the pure raw processing power of these cards, AFAICS,  is designed for rendering high quality graphics on the monitor at high framerates and is a one way process. 

AFAICS they are not designed to cope with the requirements of video rendering, ie the return of processed video back to the calling program  - when you look at the spec sheets and reviews for these cards they seem to concentrate of gaming performance.

With an Intel processor, the integrated graphics 'chip' is very closely coupled to the processor and the Intel processors are designed for video processing.  This is one of the strong points Intel have had over rival processors fo many years starting with the MMX then SSE and SSE2 processors - the micro-code within has specific instructions for dealing with media.

HTH

John EB

Hi John,

Many thanks.

Do you have any insight into the likely cause of Jeff's problem in using integrated graphics? That's essentially my only hesitation about going down that route. I'm not into gaming either. Scrabble with my oldest son places few demands on my CPU - just my brain! But any inherent issues with MEP would make me nervous.

If you were ordering a new PC today, what would be your CPU, mobo and graphics spec?

Can you also advise me how many cores MEP 2016 Premium can use?

Hi Terry

. . . . If you were ordering a new PC today, what would be your CPU, mobo and graphics spec? . . . .

I would be building my own - probably using the following components:

Processor:     i7-6700K 

M/B                 Gigabyte GA-Z170-HD3P

RAM:               Crucial Ballistix DDR4 - 16GB minimum - 32GB ideal

Drives:            I may use a 1TB SSD drive (Samsung EVO series) for the OS and
                        software + 1 x 2TB HDD for data

Burners:         2 x LG Blu-Ray

Power pack:  minimum 650W minimum - more available reserve power gives a more reliable/stable performance under load.

No extra graphics card unless there was some effect which I deperately needed and would not run on the integrated graphics or some software which would not run on the integrated graphics.  In reality the probabilty of this is very close to zero!

NOTE: these are only possibles I would be doing a lot of research before I commit to spending £800 - £1500 for the PC alone.

HTH

John EB

Hi Terry and John EB.

My computer NEVER runs any games so my experience of using on-board graphics is not affected by the demands of gaming.  But the problem I saw with my computer began almost from the first time I turned it on so I really don't know what could be the specific cause.

As for the spec John gave you, my computer has a very similar spec, just a different M/B (MSI rather than Gigabyte), my OS is on an SSD with separate HDDs for Programs, Data, Video Files, Audio etc., etc..  Plus 3 external USB ( 2 and 3) HDDs.

HTH

Jeff

Thanks both, appreciate those helpful posts.

John, after further googling I see there are fairly evenly divided camps of opinion on the dedicated v integrated issue. And I think I came across a MAGIX page recommending dedicated for HD editing. If I chose to include a dedicated card, would that materially affect my options for mobo?

Using your likely configuration, would you backup the data on your internal HD to an external HD? Would the SSD also contain some of your data files, or only 'system' files? (See also below.)

Jeff and John & anyone else using SSD,

I'd be greatly interested to hear more about your detailed usage of SSD and HD. I intend to specify at least one 1 TB SSD, probably plus one 3 TB HD, or maybe two 2 TB. I'm even considering two SSDs! But I'm not yet sure on some key points, especially about backup arrangements in such a system.

At present I backup C:\Docs (my alias for  \My Documents) and \Documents and Settings nightly to my second internal HD and weekly to an external 2 TB WD HD. Other data is also backed up to one or more of my external HDs. At present all my projects and source material and finished videos (MP4) are also on C:. But I have no imaging or other recovery plan for full catastrophic OS failure, because my C: drive is not partioned. How are both of these (data and system) backup/restore issues managed on SSD PCs please?

Hi Terry

. . . . Would the SSD also contain some of your data files, or only 'system' files? . . . .

System and program files only - if I was going to use a second SSD drive I would re-use my existing SSD drive (it gets very little use ) and  divert the Windows swap file to it .

I definitely would not use a SSD for data storage - when they fail it is usually without warning and drastic .

I currently have 5 x 2TB external hard drives for data backup and I am down to my last 0.5 TB - I have been considering a NAS box for external storage, another option would be to repurpose my current computer as a Linux NAS server - it can take up to 8 internal hard drives.

Backups:

For the C: drive I maintain a regular clone image of the drive using Clonezilla.  In the event of failure I can re-image another HD and be back up and running within a few hours - beats spending days installing everything and optimising as I did when I built my current computer.

For the data drives I regularly backup to ext HD using SyncBack.

System protection: 

Because we suffer enough brown outs, power spikes and power outages through the year, I also took the extra precaution of powering the essential parts of my setup ie PC, monitors, cable modem and all external hard drives, through a APS UPC.

Some may consider I go a little overboard on backups and system protection - however having lost a large amount of valuable data in the past it is now a case of once bitten, twice shy.

The ext HD are only powered up when I need to access them.

John EB

Hi Terry

Good to see you are going to make the leap.....I do not think you will regret it apart from lightening your wallet somewhat!

MEP 64 bit versions work much better and even MEP2014 with it's 64bit "optimization of RAM usage " is a lot more fluid. Of course some of this is the software and RAM availability and some is the upgraded hardware.

I agree with most of what John and Jeff have stated but am somewhere in between at present on the built in Intel HDgraphics versus Discreet GPU.

Generally speaking I would go for the latest available components, even if they do not appear to give any greater performance at present, because Magix appears to continue to utilise the latest feature sets, of the Intel processors' encoding /decoding optimisations, and the latest OS and Graphics chips DX12 capabilities. For instance the GTX760 has already been replaced by the GTX960 so I would probably go for that if I go Nvidia but I have already had 2 Nvidia cards - an MSI 8800Gt and a EVGA GTX460 - fail on me in 4 years each, with only MEP use.

I am considering a Radeon card like Jeff's for my new machine (see my specs in my Signature) as they seem to have a greater Memory bus width for equivalent $ compared to Nvidia. This bus width is relevant to what John has mentioned in his first post "the return of processed video back to the calling program...." The New Blue effects plug ins appear to be fairly heavy on this parallel use of the GPU and it's memory and I seem to be having trouble with the smoothness of timeline playback of the NB effects with the Intel integrated graphics as seen in this post: http://www.magix.info/uk/magix-video-maker-2016-synce-problems.knowledge.1165151.html

The other Gotcha with the Intel iGPU is that with a new installation of Win 10, the HDR effect does not work as in this post: http://www.magix.info/us/hdr-effect-does-not-work-with-mep2014-2016-or.forum.1161947.html so this is also forcing me to consider a discreet Graphics card.

As far as the CPU goes - I am happy with my 6700K and Asus Z170 Pro Gaming mobo as this has an easy overclock setting in the Bios which is a one click to optimise for "Video editing" that pushes the Clock speed up to 4.35Ghz plus other unseen tweaks. 

The main benefits of the new hardware are snappier timeline performance and fluidity due to the CPU speed and added RAM of which I consider 16GB to be adequate all my needs which is say 1 1/2 hour 1080 50P H264 projects including about 350 clips. I don't know if anyone else has seen higher usage than this - perhaps with a lot of Hires stills in a project? Anyway if you get 2x8GB sticks you will have 2 free slots to double that if needed.

Export times should improve considerably especially with HWA and the integrated GPU and Mercalli Pro and Magix stabilising analysis is very fast. Intel i7 or i5 - John and I did some comparisons with his rig and mine using the Magix demo as a comparable project to render using HWA and found similar times with my i7 only noticably faster on the UHD export....see here: http://www.magix.info/uk/dvd-bluray-space-issue.forum.1151592.html

I am not so convinced as to the benefit of the SSD which according to Task Manager does very little in out when using any function of MEP. I have my OS and swap file and programs on the SSD with all clips on a separate 4TB HDD and there is no difference in render times when exporting from the Magix demo project on the SSD back to the SSD or the HDD. The main disc activity seems to be on the HDD when scrolling through the timeline on a normal one of my projects where the clip material is on the HDD. My guess is that this is due to the fact that MEP caches data in the range you are working in and only needs to swap this out when you update the timeline. Whatever, the HDD activity seems well within it's capabilities with H264 material, or even greater data rate material. Unless you are going to put all your material on the SSD for maybe little gain, I would not waste money on a 1TB SSD.

BTW I believe MEP will use all the processor cores you have with an Intel.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Thanks a bunch, great deal of helpful advice there.

What is your backup procedure? As I understand it you have all your OS stuff (\Windows, \Docs & settings, drivers, etc) plus all \Program Files on the SSD, which I assume consumes at most around a third of its 512 GB, and all your own files on the 4 TB internal 7200 ropm SATA (3?) HD. Do you backup your files to another external HD, or to a cloud service, or what?

How many USB ports? All 3.0?

Any special measures to ensure quiet running, which is something I'm fussy about? And size of PSU?

On a hardware forum yesterday I had this strong recommendation:

"Get a 240gig m.2 for your c: drive." 

and in reply to my follow-up for clarification he replied:

"M.2 is another connection type. The "drives" look rather like RAM sticks, except with the connector at the short end, and they clip into a little slot on the motherboard directly - no cables or anything. The difference is that they *start* at about four times as fast (2GB/sec) as a SATA3 connected SSD can go, and the headroom in the m.2 connector is for up to about 50x as fast (32GB/sec) when they can make drives to take advantage of it. SATA is a dead end for SSDs."

That looks sensible to my non-techie eyes, but do you and John broadly agree?

--------------------

I must now do some more research on potential suppliers. The local
computer shop chap (attractive because of closeness) who initially
sounded encouraging has just emailed with

"Had a quick look through your requirements. I think this may be a bit beyond our area of expertise."

I think it was my mention of the m.2 connector

Happily, my self-imposed 'deadline' for having the new PC working is mid August, so I can take my time.

In parallel with my own googling, recommendations from anyone for possible builders in say this area

would be appreciated please.

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Hi

. . . . "M.2 is another connection type. The "drives" look rather like RAM sticks, except with the connector at the short end, and they clip into a little slot on the motherboard directly - no cables or anything. The difference is that they *start* at about four times as fast (2GB/sec) as a SATA3 connected SSD can go, . . .

Incomplete information  - the important figure for determining the speed of the SSD manufacturers is the maximum read and write speed that is available.

It is the read / write speed and onboard cache level that determines the true performance of the SSD. 

See here for more information - scroll down to Real World Software section - you will see that the fastest SSD has a total throughput of ~ 308 MB/s which equates approximately to 2.4Gb/s ( as quoted above ) - nowhere near the SATA maximum of 6Gb/s

The M.2 connector is a 'universal connector' that can expose up to three different interfaces in one connector - PCI-e, SATA and USB 3 depending on what the board manufacturers implement.

My SSD preference at this moment  is the Samsung 950 PRO 512GB M.2. - as I do not plan to update my PC until next year - then I would use the 1TB version which is due out in Autumn (Fall) this year.

HTH

John EB

Backups:

For the C: drive I maintain a regular clone image of the drive using Clonezilla.  In the event of failure I can re-image another HD and be back up and running within a few hours - beats spending days installing everything and optimising as I did when I built my current computer.

Hi John,

Do you write the clone to another (smallish?) internal HD partition reserved for that purpose? Would you then physically replace the failed SSD and restore it to that?

Doesn't Win 10 itself have the facility to backup/restore the OS?

Hi Terry

. . . . Do you write the clone to another (smallish?) internal HD partition reserved for that purpose? . . . .

No - the backups are created as follows:

PC - an image file is written to the second hard drive and copied to an external USB HD specifically kept for this purpose - lets call this the 'Image HD' to avoid confusion with my other backup drives.

Laptop - I clone the hard drive to an identical HD in an external USB drive case - plus a backup image on the image HD.  The identical drive is always with the laptop when on holiday - if the laptop HD fails - one small screwdriver and 5 mins later I am back up and running.

. . . . Doesn't Win 10 itself have the facility to backup/restore the OS? . . . .

It does, however I have several questions to which I have not found an answer:-

1. Does the image backup/restore create an identical copy of the HD including the disc ID? 
   
   This is very important for many programs which use a set of hardware id's to create a unique computer id for serial number generation.
    
2. Does the image backup/restore allow using a bigger HD for restoration and expand the image into the unused space so it is available for use without the need to create a second partition?
    

Clonezilla has a lot of other features which AFAICS are not supported by the Windows 10 backup image utility.

HTH

John EB

Hi Terry

Backups

I am pretty lax here. I might say that I have built my new machine as a dedicated Magix Editing workstation and tried to keep it as clean as possible - no browsing, email, and no other programs not directly related to editing. I have not installed Anti virus software as a result (except Win Defender which installs with the OS) and download stuff to my old machine then copy over my gigabit network once it has been scrutinised for nasties with Eset Nod32 AV.

I have a WD My Cloud 3TB NAS drive with a 4TB WD My Book drive attached to the MyCloud's built in USB-3 port so plenty of back up space. These drives are always on and accesible over the internet whilst away, and act as my media server to my 50" plasma. Part of the idea is that I can grab these and run if there is an earthquake plus I have another 2TB WD drive in a Pelican case that lives in an outside shed and gets updated from time to time, in case the house burns down!

Back ups consist of creating a new disc image from time to time with Win 10's back up facility although I have to plug the 4TB directly into the computers USB3 to do this as Win's backup will not allow you to do this over the network. I also back up the Magix folder from My Documents to the NAS drives more frequently as this is where all my MEP projects are and cover the video files by copying the contents of the SD cards to same when I copy them to the 4TB AV Drive (F:) in the computer.

The Asus Z170 Pro Gaming Mobo has 2 x USB3.1, 6 x USB3 and 8 USB2 ports. I use a Coolermaster Silencio 452 Mid Tower case and this has 2 of the USB3 ports and a USB2 at the front along with an SD card slot (USB2). A Coolermaster HyperX 212 air cooler keeps things cool and quiet. The only time I hear the fans is when analysing with Mercalli Pro as it kicks all CPU cores up to 100% load. The new 6700K runs so cool that the cooler is probably not even necessary but nice not having to worry. The 452 case has plastic sound deadening panels inside. PSU is a 650W Zalman.

M.2 SSD

Sorry but I have never seen any evidence which suggests there is any benefit to Magix MEP/VPX from having such high disc throughput available beyond even a 7200 rpm Sata3 HDD. I cannot do anything with my AVCHD 1080 50P projects that shows anymore than about 70MB/sec on any disc in Task manager and this is well within the 120 to 150MB/sec an average HDD can achieve. You would need to be working with uncompressed AVI's or professional formats like Pro Res 3.2K 4444 (about 700Mbits/sec =  a mere 87.5MBytes/sec) and multiple streams to take advantage of even an SSD, except for the instances I mentioned in my earlier reply and faster project loading and OS booting (which is faster in Win10 anyway).

The bottleneck with our compressed formats will always be the CPU along with the GPU's ability to accelerate (parallel process) effects and the compression / decompression required to preview them.

My opinion is that just because you can build a mega fast system it does not mean that the software will be able to take full advantage of it. Keeping in mind that Magix need to design a program that will run on a widest range of performance computers as is practical within a price, and a lot of these will be low end machines.

Peter

Hi

. . . . "M.2 is another connection type. The "drives" look rather like RAM sticks, except with the connector at the short end, and they clip into a little slot on the motherboard directly - no cables or anything. The difference is that they *start* at about four times as fast (2GB/sec) as a SATA3 connected SSD can go, . . .

Incomplete information  - the important figure for determining the speed of the SSD manufacturers is the maximum read and write speed that is available.

It is the read / write speed and onboard cache level that determines the true performance of the SSD. 

See here for more information - scroll down to Real World Software section - you will see that the fastest SSD has a total throughput of ~ 308 MB/s which equates approximately to 2.4Gb/s ( as quoted above ) - nowhere near the SATA maximum of 6Gb/s

The M.2 connector is a 'universal connector' that can expose up to three different interfaces in one connector - PCI-e, SATA and USB 3 depending on what the board manufacturers implement.

My SSD preference at this moment  is the Samsung 950 PRO 512GB M.2. - as I do not plan to update my PC until next year - then I would use the 1TB version which is due out in Autumn (Fall) this year.

HTH

John EB

Thanks John. I'm out of my technical depth here, but for completeness in case I (or others) end up back in this thread, here are a couple of fresh posts from that hardware group, verabatim:

Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Jaimie Vandenbergh <jaimie@usually.sessile.org> wrote:
>> M.2 is another connection type. The "drives" look rather like RAM sticks,
>> except with the connector at the short end, and they clip into a little
>> slot on the motherboard directly - no cables or anything. The difference is
>> that they *start* at about four times as fast (2GB/sec) as a SATA3
>> connected SSD can go, and the headroom in the m.2 connector is for up to
>> about 50x as fast (32GB/sec) when they can make drives to take advantage of
>> it. SATA is a dead end for SSDs.
>
> Bear in mind that there is M.2 SATA and M.2 PCIe.  M.2 SATA is just SATA in
> a smaller form factor and has no speed advantage.
>
> It's M.2 PCIe that you want.  There are then two types: AHCI and NVMe.  NVMe
> is the quicker of the two, especially for latency-sensitive things,

Drat! Thanks for catching me on this, I'd completely forgotten all that
nonsense - PC makers will make *anything* complicated if they can. Yes, M.2
PCIe and NVMe is the winning combo.

>but
> requires different drivers (eg may not be bootable by your motherboard).

Z170 based mobos should be fine, can't speak to others.

Cheers - Jaimie

Hi Peter,

Many thanks for taking the time to cover that so comprehensively. Doesn't look 'lax' to me!

Hi Terry

My pleasure to share.

The lax bit is that I do not do it often enough.

Keep us posted on how your new config is developing especially the choice of graphics card. I have done some more googling but unfortunately a lot of the hits / answers point to the Nvidia cards but mainly because of Adobe's Cuda engine which is irrelevant to us. From what I can tell, the New Blue Effects that my Intel HD5300 GPU seems to overload on, rely on Open GL for the parallel processing (HWA) but I can not find any information comparing how well different cards do on this front. I will continue to persue this and let you know when I make a stab.

John EB

I have only ever restored an image with a Vista ultimate Back up and Restore image from a 500GB dual boot system disc with 250GB+250GB partition, onto a 1000GB drive that had been used in a failed Data RAID (E:) in the same computer. I did not have any problems with the numerous Magix programs or plug ins needing to be reregistered. I was able to expand the C: partition into some of the extra free space on the 1000GB using the Windows Disk Management facility.

Peter