@Former user

I don't think you'll get the effect/bug if you encode a file 720x576/5:4. It has to come from a digitiser.

Here's a true-blue analogue capture file from a digitiser. The source was 4:3 (TV VHS tape), there is no aspect ratio info in the header, and the size is 720x576. MMS2023 imports it as 5:4, whereas MEP 2021 imports it as 4:3, which is what it should be.

Be aware there are uneven black bars in the video itself, but you will see what I mean when you import it and then set in 768 in SPR (uncombined). It will stretch out to the correct ratio. Apply the Section effect to it and it will jump back to squashed/5:4.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uLsJrcVBqwespdeZ-wgy1TNm7PAPT94u/view?usp=sharing

Another symptom: with one of those files on the timeline, change it's ratio between 5:4 and 4:3 through Object Properties. Nothing happens. It should stretch or squash. It doesn't.

Thanks, this is what i get, before SPR is adjusted, your media (allowing for already inc black frames) is the same as my 720x576, I made the background purple & lowered my clip.,

720x576 is 5:4, MMS is failing to create a 5:4 project but it is showing the clip at it's correct ratio on a 4:3 project, ,

It's the recording that's wrong, MediaInfo & everything else tells me this is a 5:4 image, why should MMS auto stretch it to 4:3?

@Former user

It's the recording that's wrong

No, there's nothing wrong with the recording, it's just that there is no aspect ratio stored, so everything just uses the actual size (720/576) to work out what the aspect ratio could be. It is well-recognised that Mediainfo gets this wrong.

And that file I sent is supposed to be viewed at 4:3.

why should MMS auto stretch it to 4:3?

Because that's what it is supposed to be viewed/processed at, and as I said in my first post, that is exactly what MEP 2021 does; it displays it as 4:3. I assume the programmers, years ago. made the program interpret any analogue file (that didn't contain an aspect ratio setting) as 4:3 (MEP has always been that way) but with MMS2023, something has gone awry.

Did you note that swapping 5:4 and 4:3 made on difference? That is indicative of a bug.

@AAProds

Hi Al

This looks like the good old 'Anamorphic' pixel shape issue - the pixels AR is set to 1:1 square when they should be rectangular - this is how you get widescreen (16:9) DVD in a 720 x 576 encoded video.

. . . . No, there's nothing wrong with the recording, it's just that there is no aspect ratio stored, . . . .

If I am reading the metatdata correctly the AR is stored in the file, however it is incorrect being:

width 720, height 576, however the video size is coded_width 720, coded_height 576

I am assuming the first width and height parameters are the display size settings.

Which capture software are you using and does it have a setting for anamorphic pixels?

If this was a supported video format Handbrake could fix this, does AVIdemux have the option to set Anamorphic ratio?

John EB

@johnebaker

Which capture software are you using and does it have a setting for anamorphic pixels?

John, VDub or AmarecTV, no, there's no setting apart from the number of pixels ie the actual resolution.

Every SD video that exists is anamorphic, ie PAL 720x576 4:3 or NTSC 720x480 4:3 (or 16:9). DV off a camcorder is the same, it's all anamorphic. Even my HV20 spit out 1440x1080 16:9.

Handbrake isn't appropriate because it re-encodes. I'll check with AVIDemux.

The issue is that MEP 2021 and earlier "knows" what these files are and displays them as 4:3. I suspect the programmers had set it to interpret analogue AVIs of those dimensions as being 4:3. DV AVI is different, as it appears that the 4:3 flag is set; Mediainfo is not confused by the 720x576 and displays the correct value, 4:3.

For these analogue files, there isn't even any interlacing or field order info.

As I mentioned above, the fact that MMS doesn't change the shape when you change from 4:3 to 5:4 in the video object properties indicates to me there's something wrong with the program.

@johnebaker

John, I tried Handbrake; it doesn't have an AVI Out option. I also checked AVIDemux, exported 702x576 with the swsresizer but with no luck; it did a full recode and Mediainfo still says 5:4.

No, there's nothing wrong with the recording, it's just that there is no aspect ratio stored, so everything just uses the actual size (720/576) to work out what the aspect ratio could be.

@AAProds I dragged your file in 1st so it set the project size, it automatically comes in to Vegas with an a Pixel Aspect ratio of 1.0926 (PAL DV), are these sizes you say are not stored?

I haven't altered this but I could if i wanted to, it is a shame that you can't set the Pixel Aspect ratio in MMS like you can in Vegas.

@Former user

I don't understand what Vegas is saying re the PAL DV PAR (1.0926); I have never heard of such a number before. However, the image of the fellow's head in the monitor is correct: a slight side bar on the left, a larger bar on the right. Compare that with what is displayed in MMS 2023. The side bars are much larger, squashing the image. In SPR, when you click "Original Size", the image is displayed correctly ie it stretches out.

BTW, Vegas is incorrect: these videos are Interlaced, TFF.

@AAProds 1.0926 (PAL DV) is one of the preset ratios that are in the dropdown list, or you can put your own in if you wish.

I was just showing you how it is in Vegas so no need for the 'BTW'

@Former user

I was just showing you how it is in Vegas so no need for the 'BTW'

I was merely illustrating that these programs get it wrong, just as Mediainfo gets it wrong (re your post further back about 5:4).

@AAProds

Greetings Al and apologies for being a little late for this party.

I have this problem and I'm sure it's a program problem - sorry, too many problems!. After much playing about I discovered a workaround(?) that works for me.

Open the file in MS2023 and let it do the setting to 4:3

Right click on the file in the timeline and change "object properties" to 16:9.

Using SPR, uncheck "combine input fields" and set the height to 576 then re-check combine.

Now you can use section and SPR to manipulate the image and save it as 4:3 correctly, although it's better to just use SPR because when you do use section it maintains the 4:3 aspect and 720x576 in SPR but when you go back to "full" size height it requires resetting to 576.

HOWEVER if you use camer/zoom that completely b*****s it up as it reverts the picture to 16:9.

Not ideal I know and it certainly shouldn't have to be done but here we are, 20+ years into Magix editing and still having to find workarounds.

AndyW

EDIT: JUST FOR INFORMATION - for the past couple of years I've been following with interest the development of an Open Source video editior called OpenShot; it's now not a bad little editor. I thought I'd try it with your clip after I wrote the above.

It imports the clip correctly with no problem in 4:3 format and exports to the same again with no problem retaing the 4;3 format, so this (to me anyway) proves that it is a Magix MS2023 bug if a freeware video editor can manipulate your file correctly.

@AAProds, @me_again

Hi Al, Andy

. . . . I was merely illustrating that these programs get it wrong, . . .

Came across this succint comment, last comment in this long topic in the VideoHelp forum:

'When the AVI spec was developed nobody considered the need for non-square pixels'. The rest of the topic is IMHO worth a read.

AFAICS the AVI file format specificcation was first released in 1991 and last updated in 1997.

John EB

Thanks @johnebaker.

@me_again Andy, I've capitulated for my current crop of projects and export out of VDub as 768x576. Works well! 😂 I would use 2021 but 2023 is faster with the GPU.

@AAProds

Greetings Al, I know you said you've given up on your current batch of projects but I've been playing and found something interesting that may or may not be of use to you for furure projects.

I've mentioned before on here that I occasionally use an old program called MPEGStreamclip (http://www.squared5.com/). I loaded your AVI clip into this, clicked on Save as and chose MOV in the "save as type" drop down box. It then remuxed the streams into a MOV without re-encoding.

The resulting MOV loads into MS2023 as 4:3 and saves as 4:3, the only problem being that for some reason MS2023 does not like the audio, but that's not really a problem.

I'm sure that other programs are avaiable to cnange AVI to MOV/Quicktime, possibly even Quicktime Player will do the job.

Just thought I'd let you know

AndyW