I'm switching the input device to soundcard via a switch. Line out from synth to a 3.5mm plug and on microphone from XLR to 3.5mm. Then I switch between these two inputs into the Soundblaster Z. The socket on the soundcard says 'Line in/Mic' and there doesn't appear to be a way in software to differentiate whether it's a mic or a line signal from synth.

Perhaps a small microphone preamp would do the trick or would that just amplify the background hiss too?

And regarding the inaccuracy of the recorded sound from synth, is anyone else getting any inaccuracy when recording audio? Cheers.

@Former user

First can you please read this post and give us the full details of your computer hardware, exact Windows version, etc.?

Reading your latest post, a number of questions arise in my mind.

First, and I have to be brutally honest about this, Soundblaster cards are primarily designed for gaming; they are NOT designed to handle "quality" audio. Nevertheless, you should  be able to achieve at least a reasonable sound.

You mention that I'm switching the input device to soundcard via a switch.  Is this a hardware switch, i.e physically on the card, or is it done in the card's software?

You also wrote: Line out from synth to a 3.5mm plug and on microphone from XLR to 3.5mm.  I see, from an online read of the manual, that the Deepmind 12 has outputs for stereo Right and Left. Are you using both these? If so, how, exactly, does your conversion to the 3.5mm plug occur? I ask because I wonder from your description if only one channel of audio is actually reaching your computer? This is very likely to result in the sounds you describe as arp sounds, it seems to not be able to capture the full subtleties of the audio that I hear whilst playing.  My suspicion is that the arpeggio feature is likely to "spread" across the stereo image and if your computer is recording only one channel it is possible that a part of the arpeggiation is, in effect, being thrown away.

You also mention that your mic has an XLR cable or output socket. Which precise mic is this, manufacturer and model please? It is very unusual to connect a "professional" mic with an XLR output to a 3.5mm input socket! XLR cables/sockets are "balanced", where "L" (live) carries the audio signal, "R" (return) completes the electrical circuit and "X" (screen) provides electrical isolation to prevent outside (electrical) interference. Your 3.5mm input socket is most definitely "unbalanced" and it is almost inevitable that a substantial portion of the audio signal is being lost in the conversion.

I'm sorry this all sounds rather "negative" but you are, essentially, attempting to connect "professional" equipment (synth and mic), working to professional standards and using professional sockets and cables, to a non-professional input.

Speaking personally, I would look very carefully into buying and using a professional, external audio interface, connected to your computer by USB. (You would need one that can handle a minimum of 2 line inputs - from the synth - and one XLR - for the mic. Any additional inputs would be, currently, a "bonus" but would also allow for future expansion!!) I am 100% certain, this would bypass ALL the problems you are seeing with your current set up.

HTH

Jeff

 

. Line out from synth to a 3.5mm plug and on microphone from XLR to 3.5mm. Then I switch between these two inputs into the Soundblaster Z. The socket on the soundcard says 'Line in/Mic' and there doesn't appear to be a way in software to differentiate whether it's a mic or a line signal from synth.

Perhaps a small microphone preamp would do the trick or would that just amplify the background hiss too?

 

 

I don't understand your signal route especially where you say "on microphone from XLR to 3.5mm". There shouldn't be any mic involved or a mic preamp. It sounds like your trying to mismatch line signals to mic input and that sounds like a recipe for noise. According to the manual you can set the input to mic in or line in in software.

@Former user

Hi

. . . . inaccuracy of the recorded sound from synth, is anyone else getting any inaccuracy when recording audio . . . .

No, however the comment - I'm switching the input device to soundcard via a switch - does raise the question what type of switch?

If it is an electronic switch this could be the cause of the poor audio quality. IMO it is best to use the minimum number of connections between a sound source and the device the signal it is ultimately destined for, ie do not use a switch in between, however this may not be practical and the switch should be a good mechanical one with gold plated contacts which break before closing.

Another possible cause is an impedance mismatch or signal level mismatch between the synth and the sound card, you will need to check the specs for the synth and soundcard.

. . . . Perhaps a small microphone preamp would do the trick or would that just amplify the background hiss too? . . . .

Unless you are experiencing interference/hum/noise pickup from the mic, then a pre-amp should not be necessary unless you have a very long mic cable.

. . . . on microphone from XLR to 3.5mm . . . .

If you are also experiencing audio quality issue with the mic, then if this is a balanced output mic - is the XLR to 3.5mm cable also a balanced cable or a balanced to unbalanced converter cable?

If it is a balanced cable then this may also cause an issue with the Soundblaster, the mic in is not a balanced connection, and in this case you would need some form of conversion to convert the signal from balanced to unbalanced eg a small pre-amp.

Personally I would prefer to use an external USB audio to USB interface to mix/convert analog audio signals and get them into the computer via USB, an exaple of such devices the M-Audio series of interfaces.

HTH

John EB

Again, thanks for the replies. Looks like I'll be looking into an audio interface.

Details of my system: i7 8700k socket 1151 LGA CPU

                                  Asus Prime Z370A Motherboard

                                 16GB Corsair Ram

                                  Nvidia Geforce GTX 1080 Graphics

                                  SoundBlaster Z soundcard

                               Windows 10 version 1803 (Build 17134.648)

                               Music Maker version 27.0.3.33

                              Audio playback settings: Wave driver 24 bit Sound Blaster Z

Current setup: 

   Line out (6.5mm L and R) with lead converting to 3.5mm plug into one input of a mechanical switch. Microphone XLR cable lead converted to 3.5mm plug into other input of mechanical switch. Output (3.5mm) to the 3.5mm socket on back of soundcard marked 'Line in/Mic'

SPDIF output of soundcard to Logitech 5:1 speaker setup. Logitech speakers have 5 channel inputs of different types.

Proposed Setup:

So am I correct in saying that I need an audio interface with USB audio and a Line output (L and R)?

I would then connect the synth Line Output (L and R)  to an audio interface input via a Line to XLR converting lead. The microphone XLR lead would use another input to the audio interface. The USB lead would connect to the computer to communicate the audio to Music Maker and also on playback, I would get audio INTO the interface from the computer which is then outputted from LINE OUT of the interface to one channel of my speakers.

I would then still use the SPDIF output from the soundcard to the speakers on another channel to switch to for playing games.

I don't mind spending a bit of money to get this right. Thank you all very much  for the help so far. I look forward to some kind person confirming what I would need to do. Sorry for silly questions as I am new to this music thing and have only used the PC for gaming in the past.

@Former user

Hi

. . . . Microphone XLR cable lead converted to 3.5mm plug . . . .

What make/model is the mic and has it a balanced output and is this an ordinary cable or cable with built-in balanced to unbalanced converter?

With respect to your proposed setup, if I understand it correctly, it is too complicated and risking feedback.

Using an M-Audio M-Track 2x2 C series as an example (I have not tested one of these, however from the spec it has what you need).

• Microphone: XLR to XLR input 1 on M-track.
• Deepmind: Line out to input 2
• USB: connect to PC, set as recording input in Music Maker
• Existing audio system as is.

If you can test before you buy - avoids any unforeseen hiccups in the system.

HTH

John EB

Hi John. Thanks for your reply. As the setup currently stands, the mic is an AKG D5s which I believe is balanced. The XLR  to 3.5mm cable from it to the mechanical switch is also balanced I believe (three conductors ). The Line OUT to 3.5mm cable from synth to mechanical switch is also balanced. And the cabling from the mechanical switch to the soundcard is balanced.

Concerning your suggested setup, correct me if I'm wrong John but PLAYBACK and the sound from my synth or mic would still pass through the soundcard via the SPDIF output on soundcard? The M Audio would just be used to transfer the signals into Music Maker?

Edit: Just realised that I can output the sound from the M Audio direct to the speaker setup on the 'Line in' channel on speakers. But I'm guessing that the RECORDED tracks in Music Maker play through the soundcard so when playing back I will have to change the speaker channel?

@Former user

the mic is an AKG D5s which I believe is balanced

Correct. That mic is balanced.

The XLR  to 3.5mm cable from it to the mechanical switch is also balanced I believe (three conductors ). The Line OUT to 3.5mm cable from synth to mechanical switch is also balanced. And the cabling from the mechanical switch to the soundcard is balanced.

I have to say I doubt that ANY of those cables is actually "balanced", but the critical factor is that the input socket of the sound card must also be balanced;  i.e. any single component in the signal chain is "balanced" only if every other component is also balanced. As soon as any single part is unbalanced, so is the whole chain! The three conductors in the cable that you mention is most likely to be because the cable itself is designed for stereo use, so one conductor for Right, one for Left and one for common screen.

PLAYBACK and the sound from my synth or mic would still pass through the soundcard via the SPDIF output on soundcard? The M Audio would just be used to transfer the signals into Music Maker?

No. As you surmise in your last paragraph, you would connect the Line Outs of the USB Interface to the LIne Ins of your speakers. (Just to slightly disagree with @johnebaker here, I would suggest you look for an interface which offers more than two inputs. You could then use two channels for your synth, one (stereo) Right, one (stereo) left, and additional input(s) for any mic(s)). The Line inputs will, normally, be 0.25" Jacks, so no Jack>XLR Convertor needed (Jack out from synth to Jack in on interface), mic will plug directly to the XLR socket. Using this set-up or something similar, your Soundblaster card will be completely bypassed; the USB connection between your computer and the interface will carry both audio IN to the computer and audio OUT to enable you to monitor your sound.  Hence there will be no need to

change the speaker channel

in order to listen to playback.

HTH

Jeff

Brilliant. Many thanks Jeff. And game sound will just be dealt with by the audio interface as well. Only bummer is all the connecting cables I bought that are wasted. But it's my fault. I should have asked first. Thanks again Jeff!

Finally, would this be what I'm looking for? The inputs are XLR and TRS combo so apparently I can use two channels for the synth (TRS) and one channel for the mic (XLR)?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Behringer-UMC-404HD-UMC404HD-Interface/dp/B00TTX73YA/ref=sr_1_10?keywords=audio+interface&qid=1554390424&s=gateway&sr=8-10

@emmrecs

Hi Jeff

. . . . Slightly disagree . . . .

I agree with you, I should have made it clear that the 2x2 was the minimum needed.

Another additional feature which would be useful if @Former user wants to use the Deepmind as a MIDI controller (I assume it can do this from the specs) as well, then the interface unit should have MIDI through as well - eg the M-Audio M-Track 2x2 M version as a minimum.

The Behringer specs is not clear on whether it has MIDI through via USB, it has standard MIDI IN/OUT connectors.

The Soundblaster Z Line in is not a balanced input it is stereo, so the currently the mic is not being terminated correctly, with an interface it will be.

@Former user - which unit to buy - that depends on how you envisage using it, not just now but in say 2 -3 years time, eg recording audio and vocals at the same time, recording what you are playing while listening to pre laid tracks in Music Maker etc.

HTH

John EB

Hi John. Yes I definitely need to record what I am playing whilst listening to prelaid tracks.

The DeepMind has midi in/out over USB but my attempts to get it to work with MusicMaker haven't been successful. The settings recognise it but pressing the keys just operates the sounds of the synth rather than the chosen VST.

I'll never be able to record and sing at the same time as I am just not that good and never will be. However, I can lay down some neat tunes by layering down tracks one by one and I'm quite happy doing that.

I'm open to any suggestions and would greatly appreciate them on which interface to buy if you have any ideas?

 

The DeepMind has midi in/out over USB but my attempts to get it to work with MusicMaker haven't been successful. The settings recognise it but pressing the keys just operates the sounds of the synth rather than the chosen VST.

There are settings on the Deepmind to turn local control off. This stops the synth playing its sound so you can use it is a controller.

I'm still confused about your setup, what the mic is doing and what the mechanical switch is. Reading it it sounds like your over complicating things. The Soundblaster has various options to route audio using the software that comes with it.

@Former user

An illustration(s) would help understand what you are doing. I am lost.

In MusicMaker, Program Settings, Audio//MIDI tab, the output should not be the keyboard; input should be the external keyboard. You should also have a MIDI driver selected on the same screen. In the Arranger, you should have an instrument selected and the track armed to record.

On your keyboard, as Graham points out, you will need to look in the manual to find Local controls, likely under MIDI. If you don't turn it off, you will hear the sound of your keyboard from the keyboard as well as the synth from MusicMaker.

John CB

Thanks for your continued help guys. Graham, the mechanical switch currently is to switch between the synth and the mic as there is only one 'LINE IN/MIC' socket on the soundcard. As it's been pointed out, I've been going about things the wrong way even though it works to a degree.

John, I don't know how to do illustrations on the forum but my plans are to get an audio interface and do it properly so my current setup is probably irrelevant. Regarding using a keyboard as midi, I had a dedicated midi keyboard and used that for a couple of weeks before I decided to buy a DeepMind 12. So I basically think that the only thing I was doing wrong there was not changing settings in the midi setup on the DeepMind.

Anyway, while you're all here, anyone recommend an audio interface? I want better than the bare minimum because I want to use the synth in stereo and I'm not averse to spending a bit more money on the kit. I basically just want to record the synth and the mic (one at a time) into Music Maker and be able to hear as I play and also hear the playback. And also have the option of using the DeepMind as a midi controller through the audio interface. Thanks again guys.

Edit: I'm assuming this would cover my needs? What do you think?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/M-Audio-M-Track-Eight-Professional-High-Resolution/dp/B00DP5AV1A/ref=sxbs_sxwds-stvp?keywords=m%2Baudio%2B4x4&pd_rd_i=B0010SZIQM&pd_rd_r=d1ab3706-27ba-48d3-9512-410c10f7a9b2&pd_rd_w=DHUG0&pd_rd_wg=AGB0v&pf_rd_p=96416462-6ec5-42ef-a70a-1613ca6d0693&pf_rd_r=64W6H4M67ZHB0589PNQZ&qid=1554489441&s=gateway&th=1

@Former user

IMO the interface you linked to is more than adequate for what you want to do. You will use three of the four inputs in your current set-up, two for the synth and one for mic, so one "spare".

OTOH, I'm honestly not sure it offers any obvious advantage over the Behringer unit you linked earlier! In fact, the Behringer has some advantages, e.g. the possibility of engaging the "Pad" controls, to lower the level of any input which is too "hot" for the unit to handle successfully. This is the page on the Behringer site which describes the unit and its facilities, and this page shows the downloads for drivers etc. for it. (I think you will need to install these in order to have full MIDI capability, along with the ASIO drivers for minimal latency on audio.)

Just to be fair, the M Audio has switchable 48v Phantom Power for each channel, the Behringer has only a single switch for this so all on or all off. However, this is relevant ONLY if you are using a condenser mic, which requires 48v power to operate. Most dynamic mics (your AKG is a dynamic) can simply ignore that voltage should it be "accidentally" turned on.

Behringer used to have a reputation for producing rather "cheap and nasty" equipment, not really suitable for "serious" users. Over the years that situation has changed considerably and now they are acknowledged as something of a standard for other manufacturers to try and emulate (just my opinion, but based on personally using various pieces of their equipment, including a 12-4-2 mixer which still sits on my desk, in use. I also am a church sound engineer, running the Behringer X32 Digital Mixer.)

HTH

Jeff

Thanks for your reply Jeff. Regarding the Behringer, I can't seem to confirm whether it does midi over the USB as well as the dedicated midi sockets. Also, will this deal with my 5:1 sound from games?

@Former user

Hi

. . . . .will this deal with my 5:1 sound from games? . . . .

The use of the interface - Behringer, M-Audio etc is to get the Deepmind audio, MIDI, if the interface has a USB hub or pass through, and mic into the PC - your sound system will continue to be connected to the PC by SPDIF.

What you are aiming for is as shown below

HTH

John EB

@Former user

 I can't seem to confirm whether it does midi over the USB

My feeling, from reading the web page, is that it does but I agree, it's not clear.

will this deal with my 5:1 sound from games?

No, it won't, in the sense of hearing every sound positioned in 5.1. sound; 5.1 sound brings you into a whole different ball-park! Do you have a 5.1 surround set-up (speakers etc., properly calibrated and balanced)? If so, and you want your MM set-up to also work in full 5.1 you will not be able to use ASIO for sound playback but must depend on Windows Direct Sound Driver, i.e your Soundblaster card. Inevitably, this is pushing you into an ever more complex set-up.

There are USB Audio Interfaces, I think, that can work in 5.1 or even 7.1 surround but my understanding is that the cost of them is many times the price of either the Behringer or the M-Track. (I did try a quick Google search but found nothing that is designed to work in this way! I did find several units that purport to give 5.1. output but I really don't know if/how you could get one to work with your proposed set-up of input from Deepmind/mic via a USB interface to your computer, with playback through a 5.1 interface. Theoretically, software called ASIO4All should allow you to input through the Behringer/M-Track, using ASIO drivers, and output to a 5.1 unit, using Direct Sound, but setting it up to operate without problem could well prove very difficult!) And that particular set-up would NOT allow you to listen to playback of a MM track and play along with it, aka overdub, to add a new track without risking the hazard of latency.

Thinking about this, again theoretically, for your game sound you could use your Soundblaster card and use your Behringer or M-Track exclusively for MM, though you would have to be prepared to switch between the drivers in Windows, selecting Direct Sound for gaming and ASIO for MM audio. BUT that would also entail changing the source for your speakers (SPDIF (?) for gaming, Line in for MM.)

HTH

Jeff

EDIT:  I've just seen @johnebaker's post and diagram, basically confirming what I wrote above, I think! However, I'm not sure the problem of latency will not still be an issue.

My feeling is that I should be able to switch between the 'Line in' to the speakers from the audio interface and the SPDIF as I think you say. The Logitech speakers are very good and have multiple chaneels with a selector to do this. So I should be able to switch betwen Soundblaster for games and the audio interface for MM.

Just as a side thing, with my current setup I'm finding that I have to change the audio playback settings when changing between recording midi and recording audio. I'm in work at the moment so I can't remember the exact details but I'm pretty sure it's just a consequence of trying to use MM through the soundcard.

So it looks like I need the M Audio interface with the USB hub. That way I can connect the midi USB from DeepMind to the hub on the M Audio and the USB cable from M Audio to the PC. Or I suppose I could use the MIDI out socket on DeepMind and connect to 'MIDI IN' on M Audio.

It's enough to give you a headache. Thanks for your help so far both John and Jeff. I think I'll go for the M Audio because it specifically says it will do bidirectional midi over USB.

Edit: Reading the Behringer quick start manual it says you configure your USB in your Daw as audio/midi so it does do midi over USB. I'll go for that and connect the DeepMind to the interface with a midi lead.

@Former user

Hi

. . I should be able to switch betwen Soundblaster for games and the audio interface for MM. . . . .

If you do that are you going to achieve . . . Yes I definitely need to record what I am playing whilst listening to prelaid tracks. . . ?

Looping the PC audio back to the interface so you could hear MMM will recording from the mic or Deepmind will create a feedback loop which can have unintended consequences.

John EB

Hi John. What I mean is I would be switching the Logitech speaker channel to receive from the interface when using MM. I'm presuming the audio playback from MM will come from the PC to the interface over the USB and out to the speakers. Whilst using MM I won't be using the souncard. I'll set it up in MM settings to use audio interface for audio playback.

I'm presuming what you mean by feedback loop is when I use the mic whilst playing back existing tracks? How does somebody get around that?

@Former user

Hi

. . . . I'm presuming what you mean by feedback loop is when I use the mic whilst playing back existing tracks? How does somebody get around that? . . . .

Correct - use the set up as shown in the diagram.

The sound card plays no part in the recording process at all - so has no effect on the quality of what you are recording - it only drives the speaker system so you can hear the result.

MMM is doing all the work playing pre-laid tracks and recording what is coming in via USB and outputting this to the sound system via the sound card.

John EB