@clement5

 If I have a movie and save it with file name AA, the movie name is AA

It's a "project" with one movie.

But if I edit it and save it as AB, the name is still AA, so output automatically has file name AA. There does not seem to be any way to change this behavior or to change the movie name.

By design. If you have only one movie in a project, the project and the movie will have the same name. If you "Save as" the project and give it a new name, the movie name stays as-is ie the name of the initial project. You will see the name of the new project at the very top, left side. In brackets after the project name is the movie name.

The movie name can be changed using the dropdown menu just above the timeline.

so output automatically has file name AA

I don't understand what you mean by "output", but if you are referring to an export, you can only export one movie of a project at a time, so the name will always be of the movie, not the project. Even if you do a Batch Export, each file will use the movie name, not the project name.

Edited: last sentence added.

@clement5

My movie is set to PAL with the above characteristics.  When a PAL input is 4:3 or the set characteristics of the input are set to 4:3 the resuling display size is smaller than the 4:3 window with black letterboxing on R & Left in the editor.  During output the preview window also shows letterboxing

Could you provide a screenshot of your preview monitor for this? If you could click on the video object then click the Size/Position effect icon before screenshotting (so we can see the edge of the video), that would help.

@clement5

Hi

I tested 3D Stereo recently for another user who was having problems with 3D stereo video with MEP 2022 and had no issues - it behaved as it should.

The issues you are having sound like the project settings not matching the source video you are importing, and the black bars you are getting are most likely due to the preview monitor being set to 16:9 or some other aspect ratio and not 4:3.

John EB
Forum Moderator

@clement5 @johnebaker

There seems to be something odd going on here with MEP 2022 (on my other computer).

MEP2021 seems to import a 720x576 5:4 video into a 4:3 movie correctly:

Whereas MEP 2022 doesn't import it correctly. When "Movie Size" is selected, note the oblong circle around the green ball and the extra back sides compared to MEP 2021:

If I then click "Original Size", the video correctly displays (circular circle):

Not how the black sides are now reduced because the edges of the video have been pushed outside the Preview window, and that the overall video matches the MEP 2021 video.

My source video:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RukI1MUJeW3VEhMte3lpqXFjoq2c5ofC/view?usp=sharing

Note:

-All settings, including the video properties of the object, are set to 4:3.

-My file is a VHS capture at 720x576, 5:4. Lagarith AVI codec.

-As with most VHS captures, there is black video on the sides of the video, in this case moreso on the left than the right.

-I assume my source file has a round window around the ball! 😕

@clement5 @johnebaker

After more experimentation, I've found the following:

Both versions incorrectly read the file as a 4:3, but MEP 2021 takes that in it's stride and displays it correctly, regardless of whether you click Movie Size or Original Size (which sounds right to me, as the video is 720x576, after all).

MEP 2022 on the other hand gets messed up unless the object video properties are manually changed to 5:4. Magix look like they may have attempted to "fix" the 4:3 import but not fixed the rest of the processing that treats it as 4:3.

Further, the same weird behaviour in MEP 2022 I described in my first post occurs with a ridgy-didge 4:3 DV-AVI from a video camera, with the video expanding out past the movie edge when clicking "Original Size":

MEP 2022 Movie Size:

MEP 2022 Original Size; note the changing width (export results in video being cropped off the sides):

Edited: added images.

The problem goes beyond the display or output as a file of movies with anamorphic characteristics. When I create a DVD disk image on my hard drive, the images are letter boxed no matter what I do. This was NOT a problem in 2021, but is due to the 2022 changes. I tested both NTSC 720x480 and standard PAL 720x576. The NTSC is letterboxed top and bottom, while the PAL is letterboxed R&L. There are few controls for creating a DVD image, and changing the aspect ratio of the source does not work, and in some cases causes even worse results. The problem also happens with JPG anamorphic images extracted from the original video, and edited then put back. MEP used to work well with a little nipping and tucking, but it now cannot properly handle standard PAL or NTSC formats that have been around since the dawn of digital videos! There is no cropping, just letterboxing with the corresponding decrease in resolution. I use Lagarith because it is the only non lossy format that is common to MEP and other programs I use for multiple editing passes when restoring old movies. Only the final product is then in a lossy format, so as to prevent losses in fidelity with each pass.

The 3D video problem is that MEP doesn't issue an error message for an unsupported output. Starting with a full 4k 16:9 input and trying to get a full width side by side stereoscopic output would be 2k height, but 8k width which is unsupported. MEP just outputs only one side of the stereo pair as 2D 4k rather than telling me that what I wanted was unsupported. Outputting HD as an SBS full width pair works just fine because the result is 1k height and 4k horizontal. Producing a half width anamorphic 3D pair always works because the result is still the same resolution as the original.

I've just burned a DVD/ISO with my file above and a standard DV-AVI file following it on the timeline, and I get no pillarboxing or letterboxing.

Could you post a link to one of your files (Google Drive or Dropbox) for us to try to replicate.

@clement5

Hi

. . . . 4k 3D movie (stored as a side by sice AVI) . . . . Starting with a full 4k 16:9 input and trying to get a full width side by side stereoscopic output would be 2k height, but 8k width . . . .

Are these are the same video clip ?

What is the Side by Side format - full width or half width?

Can you upload an example source clip to somewhere like Dropbox or other file sharing site for us to test with.

John EB

As to the Movie name, they hid the drop down menu very well. Hovering over the menu did not give a clue that it was a dropdown as it just looks like information. They should have the standard triangle or arrow pointing down. Magix is good at hiding things and making things unobvious, and not putting controls where they should logically be located. I just repeated another test of exporting an MP4 clip from my large movie. While exporting at 4:3, the export preview window shows black bars on the L&R. Viewing the output in Virtualdub2 the bars were clearly visible. Exporting at 5:4 did not show black bars and the MP4 output had the full frame, which looked right when VD2 displayed it at 4:3. However, using a metadata viewer on the 5:4 output, the aspect ratio was actually set to 5:4 which would cause incorrect display in some viewing software. Here are the screen shots from the 5:4 and 4:3 plus the VD2 view of the 4:3 export. The export screen shot of the 5:4 export shows the black bars in the MEP window, but not in the export viewing window. The VD2 L window is displaying with square pixels while the R one has 4:3 aspect ratio. The 4:3 is still not quite correct because it is still squashed horizontally slightly. VD2 is used for checking because it shows things in well defined frames, but other viewers often have black on the L&R which obscures the bars. This time Magix really messed up badly.

Aspect ratios are have been traditionally a problem, and some containers-codecs do not store them. MP4 has specs for pixel aspect ratio (PAR), Sample aspect ratio (SAR or pixel ratio) and display aspect ratio (DAR). AVI has no aspect ratio metadata, nor does the Lagarith codec. The 5:4 export does not display properly in viewers because the SAR is 5:4. This can be post corrected with ffmpeg, but that should not be needed. VD2 ignores the metadata and does not output aspect ratio metadata, so you have to correct it afterwards. It allows you set the aspect ratio of the display windows.

Incidentally I discovered another glitch. If I try to import a video that is longer than the existing project, it is truncated at the end. There is NO way to expand the imported video it back to the original after this happens.

@clement5

Incidentally I discovered another glitch. If I try to import a video that is longer than the existing project, it is truncated at the end. There is NO way to expand the imported video it back to the original after this happens.

I cannot reproduce that problem. All clips are expandable beyond the project length if they are long enough.

Just shrink the timeline view and then pull the end of the clip. The project length should automatically lengthen unless for some reason the files

Ray.

@clement5

Hi

Please help us to help you by providing answers to the questions you have been asked - to repeat:

. . . . 4k 3D movie (stored as a side by sice AVI) . . . . Starting with a full 4k 16:9 input and trying to get a full width side by side stereoscopic output would be 2k height, but 8k width . . . .

Are these are the same video clip ?

What is the Side by Side format - full width or half width?

Can you upload an example source clip to somewhere like Dropbox or other file sharing site for us to test with.

Additionally

Are the project images you posted immediately above to be exported as 3d Stereo?

Is the Virutual Dub image showing the result of a 3D Stereo export of the project shown in the 2 images above?

On the side issue of

. . . . they hid the drop down menu very well. . . . . They should have the standard triangle or arrow pointing down.  . . . Magix is good at hiding things and making things unobvious, and not putting controls where they should logically be located. . . .

The dropdown menu with a standard triangle is there, and has been since MEP 2013, the right image is what you get when you click it

The naming of movies is also mentioned in the manual under Project Management.

John EB
Forum Moderator

Here is a link to some of my test PAL files: https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgEkZSUlkAcxgb0eg2M8ATSCee6zgQ?e=dygZWU

The problem I am having may be related to the Lagarith AVI, and not to other formats which have aspect ratio metadata. Unfortunately, I have to use things like VirtualDub2, photoshop extended and Avisynth to fix problems in old videos, so I am stuck with using Lagarith as a compatible lossless format which can be understood by multiple programs.

Most of my 3D videos are actually slide shows created from scans of 3D film images or from stills taken by the Fuji W3 camera. The images are stored as side by side with L image on the L at full resolution TIFF files. Here is a pair of 4k 16:9 side by side images that I scanned from a View-Master reel and added the text. The size is 7680x2160. The video is created by inputting the slides in order, and then exporting an MP4. The video is set to 4K 3840x1080, and the slides are set to be side-by-side full width 3D. So you can use this slide to duplicate this process. This is actually output from my 3D project. The actual project involved importing the original images, moving them to the R, and then typing in or pasting text from a text file to generate a 3D slide. The slide show was then exported as an MP4, but the only format that will export with the original resolution is side-by-side half width, not full width. It is possible to export at full width to jpg or AVI. That is how this slide was created.

In the 2021 version of MEP the JPG output was generated by setting the size to 7680x2160 and the aspect to 32:9, and side by side full width output. The 2020 version conveniently understands to double the output width for the 3D SBS full width output. But this only works if the movie is just HD 1920x1080. If the movie is 4k and SBS full width is selected it just exports one side 2D, but if SBS half it exports a 3D anamorphic SBS.

One may wonder why full 4k is desirable? There are 3D 4k medical monitors and TVs. The passive TVs have full 4k resolution horizontal, but halves the resolution for 3D on the vertical as do the medical monitors, while active display is full 4k. At present there are 3D phones and tablets which got as high as 1440 vertical, but they halve the horizontal resolution for glasses free 3D display. At present the only format which is compatible across all platforms is side by side display so 8k horizontal, 4k vertical is the only format compatible with all devices. Maximum horizontal resolution also desirable for best depth perception. If you think 3D addicts have to be geeks, you are right. In the old film days, there were cameras & viewers (stereoscopes) you could buy and the processor would develop and mount the slides for your viewing, so non-geeks could take 3D pictures as easily as 2D.

As to the truncated clips I certainly did try to expand the long clip by pulling it out. I am using the 2022 version of MEP. Note: in the previous post I mentioned a 2020 version, but that should be 2022. Sigh, it takes time to get used to the new year!

@clement5

Hi

Thanks for the video clips.

The immediate discrepancy is that the Test PAL AVI 4:3 is not 4:3 AR it is 5:4. MEP picks it up as 4:3 - this would account for the sidebars in a 4:3 AR project

The MediaInfo data is (I have removed the audio data):

General
Complete name                            : D:\Magix\DVD_BD_Projects\Test Projects\Clement5 issue\Test PAL AVI 4;3.avi
Format                                   : AVI
Format/Info                              : Audio Video Interleave
File size                                : 128 MiB
Duration                                 : 15 s 600 ms
Overall bit rate                         : 68.7 Mb/s

Video
ID                                       : 0
Format                                   : Lagarith
Codec ID                                 : LAGS
Duration                                 : 15 s 600 ms
Bit rate                                 : 66.9 Mb/s
Width                                    : 720 pixels
Height                                   : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 5:4
Frame rate                               : 25.000 FPS
Standard                                 : PAL
Color space                              : RGB
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 6.456
Stream size                              : 124 MiB (97%)
 

John EB

@johnebaker John, all my VHS captures have been 5:4.

In MEP 2022, (as I have said above) you get black pillarboxing of that 5:4 file unless you click "Original Size" in Size and Position Rotation. Then the file displays correctly and will export without pillarboxing.

In MP 2021, that doesn't occur and nothing needs to be done (even though MEP "incorrectly" interprets the 5:4 file as 4:3).

The 5:4 ratio is not technically a discrepancy as 720x576 is the standard PAL size for DVDs which on the old TVs would be interpreted as 4:3. The same thing is true of 720x480NTSC 3:2. The clip does not have any specification of the DAR or display aspect ratio, which seems to be the problem. If the capture of a video is to MP4, MPEG or other commercial codecs/containers the DAR is specified, or the SAR (pixel aspect ratio) is specified. I managed to correct the problem with a kludge by just increasing the width of the video by (4/3)/(5/4) or by 1.066 which makes the width 768. I just tested the "original size" option and it did the same thing as my kludge. Movie size sets it back, but this is screwy. The original size is 720x576 and the old version button for "original size" would set it to that! This is totally illogical, and unnecessary because they could have set things properly for a codec which does not define PAR. They need to have a good tech that knows how to name things logically and correctly so that the labels are understood. The original size button really should be labeled "full screen" or some such option.

Thanks for the tip, but that is just another added unnecessary step I have to do to make it work properly!

As to the project name vs movie name, I looked all over the Movie options for the setting and didn't find it. Why wasn't it there?? As to the project name, that is just the file name storing the project info and can be changed by the OS. Most video or photo editors use the "project"/file name for output/export, but some will create a unique name by appending extra stuff at the end of the file name, and a few will allow the user to select the stuff. That is something I dearly desire so when I export a set of JPG images I would prefer not to have to name each one independently. I would like "file name"&time stamp where the time stamp would be the hr;min;sec;frame from the movie. For the geeks a coding "option" such as "%project% %hr%;%min%-%fr%-%codec%..." would be fantastic. Going a step further I would like the option to output multiple JPGs from a selected point every 20 seconds with one click.

Magix needs a good multilingual designer who knows how to set things up for making it easy to use as well as flexible. They also need a good tester who will check every feature to make sure they work consistently, and the way people would expect. I keep on discovering inconsistencies such as some export options remain constant from one codec/container to another, but others do not. Advanced options often reset unrelated options in the previous menu... I keep on telling them about these things that do not get fixed. Then they removed features which are useful and need no significant overhead. They used to allow .JPS files to be imported, but not more. A JPS is a 3D image packed as either over/under or side by side as a JPG. Practically every photo editor can open them as just a JPG. Some display programs can open them and if they support 3D will display them that way. There is a VREX standard for this along with metadata bits that specify the type of packing. Why did they remove it???? Actually, some photo editors can even interpret and open files that have the wrong extension! Sigh!

@clement5

Hi

. . . . The 5:4 ratio is not technically a discrepancy as 720x576 is the standard PAL size for DVDs which on the old TVs would be interpreted as 4:3. The same thing is true of 720x480NTSC 3:2.  . . . .

The interpretation of the AR for DVDs is not done by the TV - it is the player which uses the SAR to define the width of the pixel - for PAL 720 x 576 the pixel AR is approx 1.09:1 for 4:3 and 1.45:1 for 16:9.

The big problem is that the DVD standardisation in itself is a fudge. The vertical resolution for PAL (625) comes from the fact that the old TVs visible image was only 576 interleaved (576i) lines the missing 49 lines were blank to allow for the vertical flyback of the electron beam in the CRT. The same for NTSC - there were only 480 interleaved (480i) lines visible. You will note there is a connection here with the vertical resolution of the 2 DVD standards

The horizontal value of 720 had, AFAIK, no technical reason for it to be this value as the horizontal scan was analogue (continuous).

Anything other than DVD has a square pixel and this is where the problem lies with the captures from VHS tape being square pixelled.

The 'kludge' you applied is actually the correction for an old standard in a modern 'square' world.

. . . . . They need to have a good tech that knows how to name things logically and correctly so that the labels are understood. The original size button really should be labeled "full screen" or some such option. . . . .

The terminology is already correct - the Original size button does exactly what is says no matter what the project resolution is the image/video will be displayed within that window at its original size, and Full screen / Movie size (depending on the MEP version) will adjust the image/video to fill the screen eg:

A 3840 x 2160 video clip in a 720 x 576 project

A 1920 x 1080 video in a 3840 x 2160 project

Unfortunately 3D Stereo video has been in decline since 2016, when production of 3D Stereo TV's was ended, and Stereo images have been replaced by 360° Virtual Reality (VR) viewers.

John EB

I am familiar with the fact that the DVD resolutions are designed to approximate the old TV standards. Of course 720 horizontal on NTSC DVDs is just one of several resolutions often used such as 704 or 640 (square pixels)... The number of pixels is a function of how the conversion is setup, with 720 just being the current most used. OK, it is the player which defines the width now, but as I recall there were older TVs that had adjustments for aspect ratio, and even some of the newer one have that as well. Some people want full screen display for 4:3 movies on a 16:9 TV! Mea culpa for not considering the player box.

MEP is doing things in a bass ackwards fashion. It the input has 720x576 4:3 and the output has exactly the same, the result should be an exact copy of the input when writing an AVI with a lossless codec. I just did a test with an NTSC 720x480 4:3 Lararith video that is creating the same size + aspect output. The original size seems to set it to my kludged numbers 720x540 and the movie size sets it to 720x480 but there is no difference in the displayed image. One of the input images is a JPG with 720x576 and the original size sets it to 788x576 while the movie size squishes it to 720x480. The original size crops the image, but the movie size is correct. This is totally screwy. I contend that there should be 3 adjustments.

The problem here is what does original mean, and what does it refer to. Logically when you select a particular input, it refers to what you selected as that is what is now being adjusted.

1. Movies size: adjusts the size to be exactly the specified movie size, so if the movie is 720x480, the full frame will be adjusted to be exactly that size.

2. Original size: Set the number of pixels to be exactly the original size of the input. My preferred photo editor tells me the original pixel size as well as the output size when making the adjustments. I contend that original size is the number of pixels horizontal and vertical of the source.

3. Fix aspect ratio: Set the number of pixels so that the image is not distorted. In other words if the input is 720x576 and the output is 720x480 both with 4:3 the input is adjusted to squish 576 down to 480.

Now there are other considerations. You might want to pillarbox or letterbox the result, so there could be an option to do that when fixing the aspect ratio. That would be a selection between full and box. Neither selection would have an effect when the size/aspect of the input and output match.

There is of course a conflict with exports. The default would be to match the movie setting exactly. For those people who make changes there should be a movie setting restore button, and a keep aspect ratio button, just like photo editors. My photo editor also has the option of doing percentage changes in size.

Doing things this way will ensure that the output is correct. But then there is the problem of the display. Since the monitor is assumed to have square pixels, a reasonable auto display of a 720x480 4:3 could be 640x480 pixels or 720x640. So then the pixel sizes would be adjusted by the output aspect ratio. In the first case the horizontal is squished, but in the second the vertical is expanded. The second would be better because it displays all detail.

Since the manufacturers go wild with all kinds of different aspect ratio screens, I suspect there will be some diddling with pixel aspect ratios.

Yes, unfortunately 3D has been decreasing. It comes and goes in waves and the last really big one was in the 1950s, with a small bump in getween. It seems to come back in a 40 year cycle, but there are now a large number of 3D movies available on Blu-Ray, and the 3D images are still available in hard copy such as view-Master and Holmes Cards as well as books with side by side 3D images. True VR allows you to look around, and that is now being exploited by museums such as a tour of Egyptian ruins recreated as they might have originally looked. People found 3D photography difficult, so VR is even more so. There are a number of 3D addicts and some notable people took 3D such as Bob Hope, Eisenhower, Harold Loyd and Matthew Brady took civil war pictures in 3D. Americans seem to have an allergy to glasses, but 3D with glasses is popular in China, and a number of 3D Blu-Rays are released only overseas. Some people just don't like 3D, but at one time there were those who considered color pictures amateurish.

@clement5

Hi.

Other problems, depending on the methods used, is that a percentage of people can't process the information. Either through the brain not interpreting the images as one image, or a colour blindness problem. People with one working eye, astigmatism can misalign images, or long use of the glasses cause headaches in some wearers. I am in the last category. I've tried going to the cinema and watch a full length film and had to come out after around 40mins with a blinding headache. I think the idea is wonderful. I just think the implementation needs to be studied more so it can become more universal or not bother those who can't adjust, or I feel it will always be a niche market.

i understand the problems with 3D, and as a 3D addict I recognize many do not value it, but we addicts love it. There are 2 people I know who could not see stereoscopic depth, but in viewing good 3D gained that ability under those circumstances. One became a 3D photography addict. So anything Magix can do to help us with it is appreciated. However this doesn't solve the main problem of aspect ratio that I have been fighting. The big problem with 3D on the screen is that it causes problems if you tilt your head, and the old 3D movies in the '50s often had poor alignment. Modern software can align things almost perfectly, and Magix has that capability.

I tested a video that had full metadata for aspect ratio... and it exported correctly without any adjustments.