VPX6 Encoded files for DVD juddery, encoding took very long, NeatVideo plugin may be the cause

browj2 wrote on 1/6/2015, 1:02 PM

Hi,

I'm using VPX6, version 13.0.5.9.

I have a 2 movie project, 50 + 27 minutes, all 1920x1080 that I burned 2 months ago and it took about 2-3 hours to encode the files for DVD NTSC 720x480, 29.97fps, and the quality was good. Burning afterwards worked fine.

I subsequently added in NeatVideo effects on most of the clips, and stabilized a few more short clips using proDAD Mercalli 2.0 (not many are stabilized as I used a tripod for most of the shots).

I reburned (encoded to disk only) using the same burn parameters. This time, encoding took about 60 hours, and the result was that in many clips where people move, the image is juddery. See the comparison below. I imported a small part of one of the VOB files for this. The original is actually a range exported to mxv at the high resolution 1920x1080. Note the difference. I also tested an export to mxv at 720x480 and there was no difference - the result was not juddery. Exporting to mxv took 3m28s for a 12s19f clip, which I find is a lot.

I burned the encoded files to DVD quickly and with no problems. Of course, the result was as shown in the VOB files.

The clip in both cases has NeatVideo applied.

I opened a previous version without NeatVideo on the clip in question and it exported the clip of about 13s in 13s to mxv at 720x480, fast, fast, fast.

My conclusion is that it is NeatVideo that is causing the tremendous slow down. However, I don't have an explanation for the juddery VOB file, other than NeatVideo. But since it exports to wmv and mxv ok, then it should also encode properly, at least I think that it should.

I encoded to files on external HD, images on C: drive and videos on second HD. For the encoding process, I turned off everything that I could, disconnected from internet, and turned off Virus and Firewall software. I noticed that CPU usage oscillated mostly from 50 to 65%.

1. Does anyone have a solution to decrease the export speed with Neat Video effects on the clips?

2. Does anyone have a potential solution for the juddery DVD VOB files? (Other than exporting to mxv, reimporting, then burning.)

Thanks,

John

Computer:

Intel i7 860 @ 2.80GHz, 16GB Ram, 64 bit

Windows 7 Home Premium

Settings for VPX6

Burn/encode parameters

Comments

johnebaker wrote on 1/6/2015, 1:40 PM

Hi John C.B

. . . . My conclusion is that it is NeatVideo that is causing the tremendous slow down. However, I don't have an explanation for the juddery VOB file, other than . . . .

Looking at everything you have tried I would agree with you that the plugin is causing the slowdown in rendering whcih would not be a big surprise if it is having to recalculate the data for every frame in the whole movie.

The juddering looks like an extreme example of the effect you get when changing frame rate and interleave to progressive or vice versa at the same time.

Interestingly in the screens 4 and 4b you are using 29.97fps (drop frame) option - is the original video framerate 29.97 or is it 30 fps or 60fps?

Also I do not see whether the DVD is 29.97 fps Progressive or Interleave?

John

browj2 wrote on 1/6/2015, 1:44 PM

Hi John EB,

Thanks for the quick response. Everything was recorded at 29.97 fps, progressive, and these should be consistent throughout, including for the DVD.

johnebaker wrote on 1/6/2015, 2:08 PM

A bit of a longshot - the only thing I can think that is happening is that the frames are getting messed up due to the NeatVideo effect working as follows (simplistic view)

If not at a Full frame generate one from last full frame + intermediate frames
Apply NeatVideo effect to frame - a processor intensive step when calculating new data for the frame
Export frame as full frame, if one is due, or convert to intermediate frame - latter is again processor intensive as has to read previous full frame and then calculate differences to generate the intermediate frame.
Repeat process for next frame

It is at step 1 (calculate new full frame) and 3 that I think the problem is being generated - the full frames and partial frames may not occur at the same point as the originals and this is exaggerated by an accumulative difference error between full frames of the source video in step 1.

Hope this makes sense !

It would be interesting to see what happens if you export as MXV then bring this back in to a new project for burning - I would expect the video to be much smoother as there are less intermediate frames because of lower compression.

Other than that I am at a loss as to what is happening.

John

emmrecs wrote on 1/11/2015, 9:26 AM

John C B, coming to this a little late but,as you know, I also use Neat Video!

Only one thing to check occurs to me: in the initial "Neat Video Configuration" screen, did you ensure that "Progressive", and not "Interlaced" was selected? I ask that because I have a vague memory of something similar happening to one of my projects and, at least for me, ensuring the correct choice was made on that configuration screen certainly helped in reducing that "juddering"!

With ref to the length of time NV takes, have you run the built-in (in NV) Perfromance Benchmark test (it's under Preferences)? It's designed to show you the best combination of GPU and CPU cores on your machine when using NV.

Just a thought!

Jeff

browj2 wrote on 1/12/2015, 10:29 AM

@John EB,

I've been having computer problems for the last week and been out in the country for a few days. The computer takes a few hours to load everything after logging in. I did a restore to the last restore point and that helped a bit. Then I did a check while booting and it seems (the message is quite clear) that my HD is failing, so I'm trying to make a disk image, which raised another problem as the Win 7 Backup and Restore doesn't work with a WD or Seagate drive without reformatting the external drive to accept this. Strange and a pain. So I haven't gotten around to export the files to mxv format, importing and burning anew.

I will probably install an SSD for Windows and programs, and new internal drive. As per what you have said about using SSD's, I'll keep my files off of the SSD and just use it to run the programs.

That said, I think that Jeff has hit upon the problem/solution.

@Jeff,

Thanks for your help.

Progressive was checked.

However, under preferences, it was probably using just the CPU and 4 cores, but I'm not sure, as I modified this in another project on a 720x480 clip and then a 1920x1080 clip in the same project. The former gave me about 12fps, the latter about 4fps.

Then I went to the project that I had encoded and it showed Use both, 6 cores, and the benchmark showed 3.68fps. I ran Optimize and it was worse, showing the same combination but 3.28fps. I didn't accept, but then clicked on Benchmark again and it gave me 4.29fps. So I ran Optimize again and it gave me 4.1fps. Strange that it would change. I accepted this, but haven't re-encoded the video yet due to the current HD problems I'm having.

I tried a small export to mxv at full HD of 2m:48s:25f. I calculated about 21m. I took just over 28m.

I then tried exporting to mxv at 720x480, but the result is the same. I presume that NeatVideo is rendering the full HD.

Thus at about 3 to 4fps, it will still take a very long time to encode. The settings in the preferences explains why it took so long. With the adjustment to the preferences, hopefully it take less time next time.

One question, if I change the preferences within just one clip in the project, are they applied to all other clips to which NeatVideo had been applied? I presume so, but I'm not sure.

Thanks,

johnebaker wrote on 1/12/2015, 12:53 PM

Hi John CB

I think you need to get the HDD replaced before doing any testing.

If it is failing grdually then this is probably due to the disc surface coating is beginning to break up and the computer is having to do excessive rewrites as it is saving the video and veriyfing the written data.

It is quite possible this is skewing the results.

. . . .so I'm trying to make a disk image, which raised another problem as the Win 7 Backup and Restore doesn't work with a WD or Seagate drive without reformatting the external drive to accept this . . .

AFAIK you cannot use Windows 7 Backup to restore to a SSD drive - you have to use software which can migrate the OS/System to the SSD .

There are many other articles on the Internet and many SSD drive manufacturers supply software to do the transfer for you direct from HD to SSD.

John

browj2 wrote on 1/18/2015, 3:39 PM

@John EB,

I'm OT here but I wanted to document this somewhere.

Everything is almost back in order, except the default folders and Xara DPX10, which refuses to complete its re-installation. I raised a ticket with Xara. Xara DPX9 32 bit re-installed without problems.

I bought a new 256GB SSD which turned out to be too small even after moving all data files out of C drive. I have too many programs and versions of programs. In my calculations, I forgot about AppData, which tipped the scales. So I bought another SDD - 512GB and installed it, and a new 2TB internal drive. Lesson learned is to get a drive much larger than you think you need.

Thanks for the heads up about backup and recovery to SSD. I used the Acronis software that came with the SSD's (Crucial MX100) to create the backup and do the recovery. The manual was very difficult to follow but there is a guru on the forum who has an excellent step by step tutorial as to how to set up the SSD and recover everything.

All programs that I have tried so far all worked with the exception of Magix/Xara programs. Even PSP X7 worked fine, as did Pinnacle 17.6 (big surprise), and Cyberlink (came with computer).

Except for 3 recent Magix programs, MEP2015 Premium, Samplitude Music Studio 2015, and Audio & Music Lab 2014, I had to uninstall and re-install the programs. MEP2015 was a nice surprise and only required going through the change device management process and a check for the license (same with the other 2).

I uninstalled and reinstalled VPX6 with no problems. I did not face the same problems that Greg had mentioned in his post about his problems with a new system SSD.

Amazingly, all of my folder links that I had created were all there, and so far the third party add-ons work. I tested an export to wmv successfully; yet to encode for a DVD. I just have to change some of the links and I modified the folder locations in Program settings. Disk B is my new documents HD. Everything else was taken up to O:, so I went for B.

I found out that Magix PC Check & Tuning is only for a 1 year license, so I downloaded the trial 2015 and did some cleaning up of the registry. Still did not help Xara X10, but hasn't destroyed anything that I have found, yet.

I had to re-install MEP2014, Music Maker 2015, PhotoManager 12, and will have to re-install PhotoStory 2013, MP3 deluxe MX, Video Sound Cleaning Lab 2014, and any other older Magix programs that I want to keep. They all give me an error. At least seeing that 3 of the programs did not have problems shows that Magix has probably fixed the problem in most of the newer software (except Music Maker).

NeatVideo

To get back to Neat Video, from what I understand about the preferences, the speed is based on using an optimal combination of CPU and GPU as part of the program. From what I saw, I don't think that the hard disk has much bearing on the rendering speed, however, I'll give it a try by exporting to a file on the SSD. The source files are on HD's.

Here is a screen shot of the optimizer in NeatVideo:

As you can see, it will not render very quickly.