The movie is "The Leathernecks have landed" and the frame should be 4:3. Yes the sidebars are burned in. The original had been transferred to digital from an unknown source, possibly a 16mm movie, but could have been captured from a TV broadcast. It was obviously at some point in VHS format due to the usual bottom bar which is often diagonal.

The video could not be detelecined by the usual methods because it had 2 progressive frames followed by 3 interlaced frames. So Avisynth was used with the following script.

source = DirectShowSource("output.vob").ConvertToYUY2()
source
#AviSource("E:\Temp\Numbered Woman\Numbered Woman IVTCbl,Dsh,Neag 0-22-00-00.avi")
#ConVertToYV12(interlaced=true)
AssumeTFF()
#AssumeBFF
TDeint(mode=1)  #Bob frames
#TDeint(mode=2)    #Bob and match frames
srestore(23.976)

I use VirtualDub Deshaker to fix the whole frame shaking in old movies. It has the advantage of working well, with lots of adjustments including picking the area to analyze, unlike most of the others. I try to preserve as much of the original by the following: Move the picture down so as to halve the ragged VHS induced edge at the bottom..Add 8 pixels on each side using VirtualDub, Then use VD BorderControl to extrapolate the good part of the edges. Then Deshaker is used to fix the entire movie. Also, in this case I used BorderControl to create the black sidebars, which I probably should not have done in retrospect. Then using VD I cropped it back to the standard 720x480 for working with MMS. After creating a good version which requires much juggling with various VD filters and frame editing I will crop the top and bottom which are ragged due to the VHS stage before I got it.

The original movie would have been 4:3, but due to processing before I got it the actual framing was lost. It is possible that it may have gone through a couple stages of makind DVDs with various pixel resolutions. It is likely that it may be correctly 4:3 in between the sidebars. The codec used to store the movie is compressed lossless Intel IYUV. I can properly change the pixel resolution to achieve the correct aspect ratio, but I would need to be able to see somethng which is perfectly round like a wagon wheel.

While the speculation about the actual framing is interesting. The real problem submitted to Magix support is about how it can't handle the aspect ratio correctly for either display or export. I think the export is correct if the pixel size is 720x480, but that size doesn't work for the display, which makes using pictures difficult. Then there is the difficulty of creating an MP4 where the metadata specifies 4:3, but the pixel ratio is 720:480. The last update caused some of these problems, but some were creates several versions ago. Powerdirector works without these problems, but is not as congenial compare to MMS for the stuff I am doing.

Some may be wondering why I am bothering with this video. It is one of the few videos where my grandfather Clay Clement had a big part instead of tiny ones. He plays commandant. I got another copy, from a different vendor, but it has ghost telecining on almost every frame, so it could not be restored. This copy has a problem that some details near the bottom jitter which is only revealed after deshaking. To fix it requires a lot of frame editing plus extreme temporal smoothing on just those sections. I think this is caused by some film movement during capture along with the compression algorithm. If the original is VHS I might be able to reconvert it to digital without creating a DVD and that might get rid of the detail shaking.

@clement5

Greetings,

There seems to be a lot of brainpower being expended on this. Can I throw this into the pot? It's the method I use for such a problem of which it seems I have more than my fair share 🤓.

It doesn't answer the "bug" problem or if it should or shouldn't do something but it I've found it a quick and simple way around the problem.

AndyW

@clement5

Hi John C

. . . . my grandfather Clay Clement . . . .

I did wonder if there was a connection when I saw your grandfather's name in the credits.

. . . . If the original is VHS . . . .

I suspect that this was originally was a recording capture from the original film, probably not done professionally as you can see dust specks and something is caught in the film gate eg:

to VHS tape, which was then digitised, you can see typical VHS recording artifacts and jitters in places:

.

From a quick search on Google it appears this classic movie has been commercially transferred to DVD.

John EB

As I said the original movie had been badly mangled as to aspect by being transferred from one medium to another, so I masked off the R & L edges. I will either mask the top and bottom edges and possibly increase the size of the final version. The latest rekindling of MMS has more issues. The Test 1 is 30min long so that Magix can verify the problems when Test 1 is exported to an AVI, but the frame rate is correct for an MP4 export and lines up with Test 1. So I have to use VirtualDub to pick sections to export and edit separately. The timing on VD is different from MSS bacuse it gives HR:MIN:SEC:dec fraction, drat.

Of course none of the drop downs match the actual movie aspect ration, but it is almost 4:3, and I doubt anyone could see the difference. The STD Hollywood aspect should be a slightly letterboxed 4:3, but they are often pillarboxed for Blu-Ray with the video area presumably the Hollywood 1.37:1 aspect..

@clement5

There is a porthole at 3:30 that can be used to sort out the aspect. As I said previously, I think it's 4:3 provided the image is stretched horizontally to fit a 4:3 frame. As discussed, it's actually only 1.33 to 1 due to the known AVI import bug.

Secondly, I'd question the need to export to AVI from MMS. You can do everything you need to do in VDub ie process the AVISynth script (or do the IVTC using the VDub filter for that), resize it to square pixel 4:3 ie 720x540 or 1440x1080, then export out of VDub using a lossless but compressed codec, then import that into MMS and do your bits and pieces eg cropping and export the final in H264 with square pixels.

Of course none of the drop downs match the actual movie aspect ration

It's a consumer NLE that costs less than $100. You can't expect it to do everything. And in any case, it is easy enough to set up the movie settings to 1.37:1 (just type in 1370:1000 in the ratio box) and the video properties to the same.

The STD Hollywood aspect should be a slightly letterboxed 4:3, but they are often pillarboxed for Blu-Ray with the video area presumably the Hollywood 1.37:1 aspect..

There's no need to set up any side bars. Any computer/phone player will just expand the image to fit (in this case, maximise the vertical, so black bits will be visible on the sides). Any modern TV will do the same. We used to put bars on to stop a player stretching, but that need has long gone.

The problem with aspect ratio is that there are 2 definitions for it. One definition relies on the number of pixels horizontally and vertically. The other is the display aspect ratio which tells subsequent programs how to display the particular image. The solution in VD is very simple, use the aspect ratio parameter only as the display ratio and not as an indicator of how many pixels. Then the resolution or pixel count determines what is exported. In the case of AVI, the aspect ratio would be ignored because AVI does not support it as metadata. MP4 does support it and that is exactly what VD does for that codec. JPG apparently doesn't support display ratio, so the JPG should be an exact copy pixel by pixel if the resolution for the export is the same as the movie resolution. this should be same for other picture formats. There could be a compromise solution by having a check box that makes the export conform to the aspect ratio. This would change the number of pixels width:height to achieve this and use bicubic interpolation to make the image fit within the resulting frame. This second option is what you want if you wish to print or display just the exported frame from the video. But not if you wish to edit it and put it back. Picture editors do have some options like that and Paint Shop Pro does this in the resize filter. Of course that is a Corel product, not a Magix product.

At present the aspect ratio does all kinds of damage. To make a video export match the movie, the aspect has to be kluged. To make an imported image match the video viewing window the vertical has to be modified. This makes it match in the video window. But then it doesn't match in the exported video. To make that match the vertical must be 480 for my video and the horizontal must be stretched. The details are in the text document in my shared OneDrive box.

Yes, I know that VD can be used for exporting clips and images correctly, but I still have to assemble the final result using MMS. This is very difficult when still images have to be combined, because I have to change the parameters for viewing in MMS differently than for export. My restorations have many different pieces that have to fit together and it is easy to miss something that needs to be changed for export. I have to do the frame editing in photoshop extended in clips of no more than about 2+ minutes because it often gags on longer than that.

Using VD to export sections or clips for editing is difficult to get it correct as to the starting point.

The solution in VD is very simple, use the aspect ratio parameter only as the display ratio and not as an indicator of how many pixels. Then the resolution or pixel count determines what is exported. In the case of AVI, the aspect ratio would be ignored because AVI does not support it as metadata. 

That's why I always export AVI out of VDub in the actual display ratio I want ie 720x540, 768x576 or 1440x1080. Then when I import it into MMS, it displays correctly.

 To make a video export match the movie, the aspect has to be kluged. To make an imported image match the video viewing window the vertical has to be modified. This makes it match in the video window. But then it doesn't match in the exported video. To make that match the vertical must be 480 for my video and the horizontal must be stretched. 

But this is video 101 though. Set your movie settings to what you want for export (why wouldn't you?) then import your objects. If one doesn't fit the movie frame size, you'll have to crop/zoom it vertically or horizontally (or leave the black bars there, as I do with slideshows which contain scans of old pics that cannot be cropped into 16-9). There is no other way of doing it. You simply can't have varying object sizes/ratios and have them all fit neatly into one particular export window.

Yes, and I am doing the export from VD of sections to edit, but even then the import is a problem for stills. They need to be adjusted for proper output, but what you see in the video window is not what ends up being exported for stills. So there is no way to adjust things properly without a lot of back and forth. The exception is where there does not have to be position adjustments. The only time stills seem to be properly adjusted for both the video window and export seems to be for B&W mask for chroma key. Exporting from VD just slows down the process. MMS needs to be fixed. Also, the aspect ratio problem for MP4 also needs to be fixed. True I can probably scope out a way to set the exif aspect ratio using another program, but I shouldn't have to do that, and it is just another time wasted step. This problem didn't happen in much older versions. They really bollixed it. From what I can see they created gobs of individual code for each export rather than combining it into common subroutines.

I "still" don't understand. Why are you exporting stills from VDub?

If you export them (or otherwsie process them in a 3rd party program) at the display frame size of your Magix movie setting, you will not have a problem. For example, if your movie has a height of 480 pixels and a ratio of 4:3, the image to fill the screen will have to be 640 pixels, or 1440x1080. or 1920x1440.

Can you give us a detailed example of a still that doesn't import properly?

Also, the aspect ratio problem for MP4 also needs to be fixed. 

What exactly is the issue? I've never had a problem with MP4s from MMS not displaying correctly in other players.

Are you saying your exports are too quashed either vertically or horizontally?

Been doing a few tests importing images into MMS.

If you import a 720x576 image, it automatically is assigned a ratio of 4:3, which is incorrect and results in it being stretched a bit width-wise. If the image properties are set to 5:4, it displays correctly.

If you import a 768x576 image, it also has properties of 4:3, but it displays correctly.

I export stills for processing using Paint Shop Pro. The two uses are for noise and artifact removal or to use as a mask. Some players use the display aspect ratio, and some do not. I don't know what YouTube does, but many players have controls to set the display aspect ratio. There actually is a display aspect in JPEG. There are 2 specs X Resolution, and Y Resolution exif tags, but most photo editors ignore them, or just look at one of them. The latest update to MMS 2025 has bollixed the ability to properly include stills that have been exported from MMS. My exif viewer does not show all the metadata.so I cannot view the JPEG X & Y resolution.

In the past my primary way of fixing old videos involved exporting stills editing them and replacing that individucal frame. It worked perfectly with no glitches, now it doesn't. Mostly I use Photoshop extended to edit video clips, but sometimes I still need to mask part of a video to correct just one area in multiple frames, and it doesn't work because of the way they bollixed imported stills where the size has to be different for the video display window, or the export.

@clement5

Hi John C

. . . . There are 2 specs X Resolution, and Y Resolution exif tags, . . . .

The X and Y resolution tags are the number of pixels per inch for the width and height of the image and have nothing to do with the AR ratio. They are, by default, set to 72 pixels per inch (ppi).

The X/Y resolution tags are a hang-over from the days of film when images were converted by scanning for further processing in photo editing software, before creating the press print plates. The print plate resolution units being Dots Per Inch (DPI) ie 'ink dots' per inch and they bear no relation to PPI.

To see the X/Y resolutions, in Windows File Explorer, right click the image and select Properties, in the Details tab you will see the values if they are present. However you will find if you have another Exif reader, I use Exif Pilot, you may find you get different values with digital images

These parameters are meaningless, when the images are used for none 'press', ie laser and inkjet printing, and in video.

John EB

I looked at the list of exif data in the Wikipedia and the resolution figures were the only numbers that could make sense as determining the aspect ratio. Windows reports them. They are used along with the size in pixels to determine the size in inches for output, but Paint Shop Pro only reports one value. So they have been repurposed to set print scale, but not independently. If they are different they would determine the pixel aspect ratio which with the number of pixels would determine the picture aspect ratio. Changing the resolution number changes the number of pixels keeping the "print size" intact in PSP. The resulting image occupies a different size in the window if 1:1 display is selected. So, there is no way of setting the aspect ratio in a JPG if the image is anamorphic. To print an anamorphic frame from a video one must have the size on X,Y changed independently. MMS formerly MEP used to ignore the aspect ratio when exporting or importing stills, but by default would set the width,height using the aspect ratio to create square pixels in the output. But then if I restored the width,height to the video values it just outputs a direct image of the frame from the video. That made it convenient to clip a frame for separate editing and replacement. Ok setting aspect to 3:2 is a good workaround, but there is no good workaround for importing the edited still whether it is exported from VD or MMS. This problem does not seem to happen in an HD or 4K video, fortunately my HD video slide shows can be recreated without huge problems.

@clement5 @johnebaker @me_again

I think I've cracked the image issue. With the help of my old website from long ago, this issue has been around since probably since day dot.

It only occurs with images that are exactly 720x576 (I haven't tried "NTSC" 720x480). Any difference, even to 722x578, will work correctly.

What happens is that when you import a 720x576 image, Magix automatically assigns it a 4:3 ratio and will display it, stretched, to fill the 4:3 screen (which, of course, is effectively 768). If one then changes the object properties to 5:4, then image display correctly ie with thin black side bars (pillarboxed).

On export (JPEG or video), if you don't reset the ratio from 4:3 to 5:4, the horizontal stretch will be burned-in and on re-import, will be distorted.

If you import that 722 file, you'll note in the object properties that the correct ratio (~1.25) is displayed.

Here's some images to play with. Note that 722x578 does not exhibit this (nor do other frame sizes AFAIK).

@me_again

Andy, re your video, yes, that works. The porthole's round. You're a pretty fast clicker for an old fart. Double strength tea perhaps? 😁

But Magix repeatedly changed what they do. It used to be that to export a 720 x 480 image at 4:3 would result in an identical copy with the same size. Then it was changed so that I had to put the ratio to 3:2, but the exported image could be imported and it matched. Now that no longer works, and the size has to be diddled differently for export of the video or display in the MMS video window.

@AAProds, @clement5

Hi Al, JohnC

I have tested Al's image against mine and from both get the same results, .

. . . . this issue has been around since probably since day dot. . . . .

The AR 'error' is also repeatable in MEP 2016, I cannot test further back as I do not have my VM's availalble at the moment.

. . . . Magix automatically assigns it a 4:3 ratio and will display it, stretched, to fill the 4:3 screen . . . .

This struck a chord with me, I was reading one of the MEP/MMS/VPX manuals not so long ago (this year) - yes I do read them occassionally - and I remember there was a remark that an image would slightly stretched, IIRC there was no reason or conditions given.

John EB

@clement5 @johnebaker

I've done a trial with "NTSC" movie settings ie 720x480 4;3, and the results are the same: if the image frame is exactly 720x480, the image is stretched vertically to fill the 4:3 window. And not by a "slight" amount either. The distortion stands out like dog's balls.

If the image is anything else eg 721x480, no stretching occurs and the image is correctly displayed with letterboxing.

I tried a larger 3:2 image, but it imported correctly with no stretching.

Message: to fill the screen without cropping/zooming, import images with a Pixel Aspect Ratio of 4:3 eg 768x576 or 720x540. Alternatively, after import, change the Display Aspect Ratio to the PAR eg for a 720x480 image, change the object properties ratio to 3:2 (type it in) or for a 720x576 image, change the ratio to 5:4.

Test files attached.

I will put in a bug report. Time this was fixed.

I did a trial and successfully got an exported still restored and exported. The trick to export as I previously said is to set the aspect to 3:2. Then to get correct import change the movie aspect to 3:2 (file/settings/movie). But then after importing set the imported file to aspect 3:2 (right click on the object then Object properties/Video.

Unfortunately this does not solve the MP4 problem. To export an MP4 properly you have to use aspect 3:2 which sets the display aspect to 3:2 which causes the wrong display in programs that use the "Display aspect". So the only way I have to fix this is to export the video as an AVI and then use PowerDirector to export the MP4. This kludge will work with AVI because it doesn't store the Display aspect, but might not work with other codecs like MP4 which does store it. Exporting an MP4 with 4:3 aspect letterboxes the result.

True the whole problem could be fixed by squishing the original to 640:480, but then there is some loss of resolution due to the lower number of pixels in 720:480 as well as due to the processing..

I have submitted my Test 1 project problems to Magix, but of course they do not assess it immediately to be able to reply in anything other that an untimely fashion. The frame rate problem was passed on to the development team, but they essentially said it could not be fixed. What a crock. VD recognizes the 29.976 as being 24000/1001 and works accordingly. That would be just one line of code at each place you can set it. Of course there should be just one subroutine for setting all export parameters. And one list of parameters which would define the correct rate as 2 digital numbers. I suspect the code is a rats nest with loads of duplicated code.

@clement5

The trick to export as I previously said is to set the aspect to 3:2. Then to get correct import change the movie aspect to 3:2 (file/settings/movie). But then after importing set the imported file to aspect 3:2 (right click on the object then Object properties/Video.

I still don't understand exactly what you are trying to do. Are your source clips 4:3 or 3:2? Not what the dimensions are, but what the display aspect should be?

The movie settings must be set to the final format/aspect. Then, make your objects fit into the window. Trying to export with an aspect that differs to the movie is asking for trouble. It can be done but there's generally no point.

Exporting an MP4 with 4:3 aspect letterboxes the result.

Of course it will: it is impossible to have 3:2 material on the timeline and export it to 4:3 without letterboxing unless, as I've said a few times, you crop/zoom your objects so they fill the 4:3 window.

I will want to have a 4:3 export, but the pixel aspect ratio is 3:2, while the target aspect is 4:3 these are independent quantities. So when a DVD is created the pixel aspect is 3:2 names 720:480, but the display aspect metadata is 4:3, so the image is rescaled by the player within the limitations of the playback device.

There are TWO definitions of aspect ratio, the pixel aspect, and the display aspect. Some computer based playback use the display aspect ratio, and some ignore it. Many have the option to change the display aspect. AVI is the ONLY container that has a lossless compression in MMS, but it does not provide for display aspect. It used to be that MMS obligingly ignored the specified aspect for its operations, and then would use the specified aspect as just the metadata for the export. Now it diddles the picture in the wrong fashion. So if my video with pixel aspect 3:2 is exported with specified aspect 4:3 it letterboxes the output, which is absolutely wrong. I cannot create a correct MP4 with 720:480 pixel aspect aka 3:2 and have the metadata be 4:3.

Commercial DVDs have 720:480 pixel aspect all the time and then the display aspect is set to either 4:3 or 16:9 as appropriate. The HD formats usually have square pixels so the display and pixel aspects are the same. This problem also exists in PAL formats as in either legacy NTSC or PAL the vertical resolution is fixed, but the horizontal can have several different values with an embedded display ratio to make the display look right.

Letter boxing is flat wrong behavior for the output as the pixel aspect and display aspect can and should have different values. MMS developers do NOT understand this. Perhaps the people who knew how the legacy formats work have all left and only uniformed youngsters are now doing development.

See: wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_aspect_ratio