Making Blu-rays

MikaS wrote on 7/21/2022, 7:38 AM

I'm trying to make PAL Blu-ray discs with my MEP Premium 21.0.2.138. The goal is to be able to play them with my Samsung BD-player.

My current project's sources are recorded with a Panasonic camcorder. The clips are MPEG-4 1080p50. I followed John EB's tutorial and was able to make a disc, and then play it with my Samsung. But the video was slighty jerky in places where the camera was moving or where people were moving fast. The original clips look OK when I play them with my computer.

What could be the reason for jerkiness and how could it be reduced?

When I exported the original clips to Magix video (.mxv), I used the original settings (50 fps & progressive). Should I have changed those to something else (25i?)?

Before burning the disc I had plenty of options to choose, and I wasn't sure what to choose.

MPEG-2 or H.264? I chose the latter.

In the Encoder settings I chose the default setting: Blu-ray 1920x1080i PAL. So I guess the interlacion(?) was made there, and the info-box also says it changes the framerate to 25. Does it make any difference if the change from p50 to i25 is made in exporting to mxv or in Blu-ray export?

There's also a "Apply anti-interlace filter (suppresses flickering)" -box, but I didn't tick that. Mistake?

In "Advanced settings" there's also interesting choices to be made: top field first or bottom field first?

I guess the bitrates and coding qualities don't affect the jerkiness?

I would be very grateful if someone could tell me which options I should choose.

Comments

johnebaker wrote on 7/21/2022, 2:01 PM

@MikaS

. . . . the video was slighty jerky in places where the camera was moving or where people were moving fast . . . .

Unfortunately this appears to be an issue with progressive source video in combination with changing to interlaced and/or changing framerate.

Whether you choose top field first (TFF) or bottom field first (BFF) is not relevant when the source video is progressive. When it does matter is if any of the source video is interlaced, then the setting used should match that of the imported interlaced video.

I have a similar issue with pan shots in some of my progressive video, which is 25 fps, creating BluRay discs as h.264 TFF or BFF, or as MPEG-2 Progressive the results are the same the jerkiness appears.

The one option I have found that helps is to turn on the Interpolate intermediate images option in the Speed effect for all the video clips.

. . . . "Apply anti-interlace filter (suppresses flickering)" -box, but I didn't tick that. Mistake? . . . .

Only if you have a project made up of still images only, or still images mixed with video, it suppresses line flickering that can when still images are converted to video.

HTH

John EB
Forum Moderator

Scenestealer wrote on 7/25/2022, 1:25 AM

@MikaS @johnebaker

. . . . the video was slighty jerky in places where the camera was moving or where people were moving fast . . . .

Unfortunately this appears to be an issue with progressive source video in combination with changing to interlaced and/or changing framerate.

(Edit) I have shot most of my video using 50Progressive until recently where I now have a camera the same as John EB that only shoots 25P at 4K resolution. In the past I have played around quite a bit with trying to eliminate the stutter when converting 50P to 25i for DVD or Bluray. Theoretically, interlacing the 25fps (50 interlaced fields per second) footage should make the rapid pan or action smoother by blending the two fields which have been created with a (smaller) horizontal displacement equivalent to have been shot at 50fps, but the problem is that editing software appears to just lose every second frame of the 50P to create 25fps and then interlaces every second remaining frame, taking the alternate fields from the same progressive frame. The problem with this is that there is no spatial displacement between the alternate fields in the created frame, so there is no blending of the two fields to smooth the larger displacement of the images, caused by the rapid movement and the slower 25fps display frame rate. In other words you end up with a frame that is as if it had been shot in 25P. (Edit)

The only solution as John has mentioned is to set the Interpolate Intermediate images in the Clip Properties (Rt. Click clip) or Speed Effect before encoding.

The other thing I find with my 25P clips is that they play jerky on the computer but are much smoother on the TV, because modern TV's have something called Intelligent Frame Creation settings, which generate interpolated frames whilst displaying.

Peter

CubeAce wrote on 7/25/2022, 3:26 AM

@MikaS @Scenestealer @johnebaker

The problem with shooting at lower frame rates is the exposure time per frame remains the same as if you were shooting at a higher frame rate for the same amount of light until the amount of light gets dimmer and the camera would then start to select a higher ISO if in auto ISO mode. So shooting in bright sunshine will give a more stuttery effect between frames at lower frame rates. If your camera is also using any form of image stabilization each frame will be 'held still' for longer between each frame to prevent camera motion blur when hand held if image stabilization is turned on. It is doing its job but increases the distance of the amount of camera movement between each frame making the results even more jerky. .

None of the above is easily corrected in post editing and should be rectified at the recording stage. What can be done will depend on the complexity and flexibility of the camera settings. How much you can shoot manually and the amount of shooting options available. Where shooting options are limited, the use of ND filters can be a good option to increase exposure times if you can at least lock the ISO setting down. If you can't lock down the ISO setting do not use ND filters.

Shooting from a monopod or tripod with image stabilization turned off is another. Slowing a pan while holding the camera close to your body and swiveling from the hips is better than holding a camera away from you and moving your arms. If you can alter the aperture of your camera you can shut down the aperture up to a point instead of using an ND filter. Again, only do that if you can lock the ISO value down.

Of course altering apertures or using ND filters can have an adverse effect on auto focus systems so some care and checking is called for.

A lot of us, myself included, have been happy for modern cameras to take over a lot of the shooting decisions for us. Point and shoot. Unfortunately it doesn't make it best practice to get the best footage.

If you still want automation then the best bit of camera gear is an electronic steady-cam with x-y-z gimbal movement and a smooth pan delay that will smooth out some of those problems, but that makes holding a heavier camera more uncomfortable for anything more than a few minutes.

I'm sure both John and Peter are aware of such problems and are keeping their replies to the points about what can be done in editing, but more can actually be done in camera than in post editing to get smoother results.

Ray.

johnebaker wrote on 7/25/2022, 6:09 AM

@CubeAce

Hi Ray

. . . . the best bit of camera gear is an electronic steady-cam with x-y-z gimbal movement . . . .

Agreed, however most of the ones I have looked at are designed for SLR's, and those for video cameras are in the high hundreds to thousand+ £'s.

They also tend to be on the large size, definitely not something you can slip in a pocket.

I may be able to get into Wex in the next couple of days to have a look again.

John EB

CubeAce wrote on 7/25/2022, 7:29 AM

@johnebaker

Hi John,

I agree that finding one that handles between phones to DSLRs is not easy.

This one seems to be in the middle ground with a top weight limit of a couple of pounds but has various ways to mount the balance of a small camera or phone.

Ray.

MikaS wrote on 7/25/2022, 7:49 AM

Thank you all! I'll try the Interpolate Intermediate images -trick. But at what point should I do it? I first edit & export the clips to 50p mpeg-4's (as I like to save those as well) and then export the mpeg-4's to Magix videos. Is it enough if I do the "triple-i" trick only in the latter phase? Then I would have the 50p mpeg-4's to be watched from computer HDD and the Magix videos to be used in BD making.

johnebaker wrote on 7/25/2022, 1:31 PM

@MikaS

. . . . Interpolate Intermediate images -trick. But at what point should I do it? . . . .

Any time during editing, the effect is only used when exporting or creating BD discs.

. . . . then export the mpeg-4's to Magix videos . . . .

Does this mean you are loading the exported MPEG-4's into a new project to export as MXV? If so this is not necessary, the original project can be exported as MXV.

Do note that in the tutorial you referenced, the use of MXV files is for when you have multiple movies that you want to add to a single disc - a typical example would be a holiday at different locations and you want to have each location to be a separate movie on the disc, and the computer cannot handle the multiple movies (timelines) in one project.

John EB

Scenestealer wrote on 7/26/2022, 7:29 AM

@MikaS @johnebaker @CubeAce

I have edited my previous post to try to make my explanation a little clearer (here's hoping!😑).

Mika I would not use the Mpeg4's to then encode to MXV to then encode to the Bluray as this is an additional transcoding step that can lead to quality loss. Just export the 50P Mpeg4's from the timeline to your HDD.

Then, just before you export the project to the 25i Bluray - apply the Interpolate intermediate images to the clips in the timeline and test the effect of this by reviewing the encoded 25i file that is created prior to burning - or use a re-writable disc.

Peter

MikaS wrote on 10/4/2022, 11:51 PM

I haven't had the time to do my Blu-ray project, but now I intend to finish it. I still have a couple of questions:

1) From 50p to 25i: When should I do this conversion? Is it when I'm exporting from mp4 to mxv or when I'm burning the mxv's to disc?

2) The mxv-files are big: I exported one of my movies to mxv (50p), and it was HUGE. As an mp4-file this six minute movie is 1,15 GB, but as an mxv it is 6,92 GB (export quality default = 85). I then lowered the quality to 50, but it was still 3,74 GB. The 20 short movies I intend to include to this Blu-ray disc are about 71 minutes total. As mp4's their total size is 13,3 GB, and they should fit to a single-layer disc. But as mxv's (with 85 quality) they would be about six times larger, 80 GB. That's too much. So why are the mxv-files so big, and how can I make them fit to a single-layer disc?

AAProds wrote on 10/5/2022, 12:22 AM

@MikaS

Mika, unless you have a slow machine and have multiple movies in your project (JohnEB's last post above), you shouldn't be using MXVs at all. As Peter has pointed out in his post above yours, all that does is add another generation of admittedly slight video quality loss.

If using the Interpolate intermediate images, just set it on each clip on the timeline then create your Bluray disk using the Magix Burn menu. Choose H264 as the format, and away you go. I'd recommend using the Image Recorder as the burner so you can check the menus work and the quality looks OK (VLC Player will play your project ISO: find the ISO in Windows Explorer, right-click on it and choose Open With...).

emmrecs wrote on 10/5/2022, 3:28 AM

@MikaS

I would whole-heartedly endorse what @AAProds has written!

In answer to your question about file size (and this directly links to Peter's and Al's point about generational quality loss); your .mxv files cannot be directly burned to BD, they must be Exported (i.e.,) "reencoded" to the standard file format for BD. So you will not, and cannot, exceed the maximum capacity of your single-layer BD, about 25GB.

Jeff

MikaS wrote on 10/7/2022, 10:30 AM

Thanks for the tips!

The good news: I managed to create a Blu-ray disc. I followed John's guide, but skipped the mp4->mxv conversion. It took a while to insert the 20 movies to the project, but not too long. Editing menus was a bit tricky (coming from Encore), but at the end I got them how I wanted. So now I know how to make a BD with Magix!

The bad news: The jerkiness is still there, even when I used "interpolate intermediate images". It's so bad, that the disc is useless (thankfully rewritable). In my shots, the camera is mostly pretty still, but people and animals are moving, and that doesn't look good.

I guess that this is the best I can get with my Magix software, with the footage I got. I don't know if this is a question for this forum, but have you tried any other software to make the progressive -> interlaced conversion? With a quick look, Handbrake and VidCoder don't seem to offer an option to export interlaced. I have also access to my wife's Premiere, so I could try that. Or... can this problem be solved at all with software?

AAProds wrote on 10/7/2022, 8:37 PM

@MikaS

I would try using the Magix AVCHD bluray authoring option (which has an option for 1080P25) but burn it to the "Image Recorder". That will produce an ISO file, which is, in effect, the disk image. Then, use Imgburn to burn the ISO to a bluray disk. I will admit I don't really understand why Magix says "SD Card" for the AVCHD options but VLC Player will happily open the ISO created, so I assume it's genuine Bluray.

Otherwise, other programs that would be worth trying would be TMPGenc Authoring Works DVDFAB Blu-ray creator; edit your movies in Magix then export at 1080P50 and import those files into these authoring programs and see if they do a better job with the stuttering (or they probably can make an Ultra Bluray disk using 1080P50 files, which is what Magix can't do).

If you want to get your hands dirty (but still want to use Magix for your menus), pose the question on conversion from 50P to 21i at Videohelp. There are some real magicians there.

MikaS wrote on 10/11/2022, 12:23 AM

Hi, I tried the AVCHD with 1080p50 settings (I didn't have a 1080p25 option), but it gave me an error message. I might try TMPGenc, or try to make the conversion in Premiere. But it just might be that the days of optical discs are gone...

johnebaker wrote on 10/11/2022, 7:56 AM

@MikaS, @AAProds

. . . . other programs that would be worth trying would be TMPGenc Authoring Works DVDFAB Blu-ray creator . . . .

I have had both of these programs, TMPGenc is, IMHO, over complex in it mode of operation, and I never had great success with DVD Fab.

. . . . AVCHD with 1080p50 settings (I didn't have a 1080p25 option), but it gave me an error message . . . .

No issues with this option here, what is the error message?

John EB

MikaS wrote on 10/13/2022, 12:19 AM

AVCHD error:

When I open the AVCHD burning window, I don't get an "image recorder" option (as AAProds suggested), but only "Encode in directory" or the disc-shaped burning icon. I tried both available options, and both failed. Encode in directory gives the following error window:

mda reports DVD image creation error: 040103ee

When I press ok, I get another error window:

Burning was aborted with the following error: Error encoding. Movie encoding failed.

I also get a log file, which has over 6000 lines of text. Did not read that.

This operation did produce 20 mts-files to a directory.

I'm not sure what was the error message when I tried to burn it straight to disc, but it was probably the same.

I don't know it makes any difference, but I had "interpolate intermediate images" ticked on for all movies. Is that only for interlaced end-product?

AAProds wrote on 10/13/2022, 1:10 AM

@MikaS

Odd. Here's my AVCHD burn screen. I've chosen Image Recorder from the dropdown at the top.

Edit: sorry, I am on MMS 2023 for the above. You're on MEP 2022 (although I was able to also burn to the Image Recorder on my MEP 2021).

johnebaker wrote on 10/13/2022, 3:15 AM

@MikaS

Try temporarily disabling your antivirus Folder protection feature and Behaviour shield and try the burn again - I have found my AV (Avast) is blocking the burn to ISO image.

. . . . I also get a log file, which has over 6000 lines of text. . . . .

With MEP 2022 closed and delete the log file.

Start MEP and try the burn again when it fails close MEP and open the log file again and locate the following text:

[DiscMaker]: Step 1 of n, Encoding movie 1 ... where n = 5 or greater depending on how many movies (timelines) are in the project

Below this you should have several lines starting with the step number eg Step 1 of 5 each step for a single movie project

Copy and post the lines of text starting with the above line and include the line with the error message. and the line after.

Note some lines will have other errors indicated

Which menu template did you use and were any modifications made to it?

John EB

MikaS wrote on 10/13/2022, 6:30 AM

Thanks, I found the Image recorder -option. My BD-drive was there as a default option, and it didn't cross my mind, that there could be other options as well. So I tried the burning again with Image recorder, but got the same error messages again.

Anti-virus: I have tried 3 different ways (burn to disc, burn to image and encode in directory), and all failed. I don't think that my F-Secure is the problem. Besides, when I tried to burn a Blu ray, the burn itself was a success (even though the movies look jerky).

My project has 20 movies, but the log file lists 43 steps. There are so many lines after the 1st step, that I'm not sure if there's enough space here. 🙂 But the very last lines are:

2022/10/13 13:54:23 [INFO]    [DiscMaker]: Step 42 of 43, Creating DVD image...
2022/10/13 13:54:23 [FATAL]   [DiscMaker]:
                              MDA reports error 67175406 - cannot find procedure ErrorToString in mdabase_x64.dll
2022/10/13 14:03:20 [INFO]    [DiscMaker]: Step 42 done
2022/10/13 14:03:20 [FATAL]   [DiscMaker]: PrepareDVDVideoFiles() failed with errNo 5 - encoding failed
2022/10/13 14:03:20 [FATAL]   [DiscMaker]: !!! DBK BurnProject: 10 - movie encoding failed !!!

I'm not sure which menu template I used, probably the default one, where the buttons are an image from the movie, and then the name of the movie on the right. It looked a lot like the menus used in your guide. I put my own photos as a background image, made some changes to the fonts, and changed the movie images of the buttons. Then I also changed how many movies per menu. The default was 8+8+4, but I changed that to 7+7+6.

I might try to create a whole new project, with only two movies, and see if I can burn an AVCHD disc...

MikaS wrote on 10/13/2022, 12:38 PM

Wow, I managed to create a two movie AVCHD disc. I used the default menu and didn't make any changes there. Burned it to ISO and then burned that to a BD-RE. My Samsung BD-player was able to play it... and the video played as smoothly as it had played in PC. No more jerkiness!🙂

Thanks for your help! I'll now try to create the disc I originally intended, with all 20 movies.

johnebaker wrote on 10/13/2022, 2:44 PM

@MikaS

Thanks for the error message that was exactly what was needed.

I had the same issue back in 2017 here and the issue was caused by my editing the menus such that the first menu had no video on it, only buttons linked to other menus each with a collection of videos.

The fix was that the first menu had to have at least one movie on it, this could be a short copyright notice or whatever you require.

HTH

John EB

MikaS wrote on 10/14/2022, 2:20 AM

That's strange... Because I had 8 movies on my first menu (and 8 on second and 4 on third).

johnebaker wrote on 10/14/2022, 3:43 AM

@MikaS

. . . . That's strange....

It is, did you make any changes to the disc menu?

Try the burn again, however change the default menu template to the Red Smoke template - I have found this to be the most stable template, particularly when editing it.

John EB

MikaS wrote on 10/14/2022, 5:08 AM

I made changes to the menus. I made several tries (burn to disc, image record, encode to folder), and I'm not sure what changes to which tries. But at least I put own photos to background and moved the places of buttons. I'll try to document carefully my next attempt (with Red Smoke).

I haven't found an option where I could choose how many buttons per menu I want. The menu template I have previously used puts 8 per menu, and I want less. My solution was to manually all the buttons from a menu and then add them one by one. Maybe there's a setting somewhere, where I can choose this?