Hi
. . . . .I tried Cinelike-D previously but found it sometimes did strange things to skin tones in 8bit (probably more due to my grading skills) . . . .
Your grading skills are hampered by using 8 bit, which does not have enough levels (256) for the individual RGB channels compared to 10 bit (1024).
8 bit per colour can produce 16,777,216 colours, compared to 10 bit which has just over 1 billion colours
Using Cinelike D and then applying the LUT is going to 'distort' the colour reproduction significantly.
John EB
For what its worth, as a new user of Magix video editors, I do not have VPX installed but I do have MMS 2024 and Vegas Pro 19 along with other editors I use. Here are my results with @Reyfox's video file;
Pinnacle Studio 26 - works
Videostudio 2023 - works
Capcut (free) - works
Vegas Pro 19 - automatically downloaded codec - works
Davinci Resolve 18.5 (free) - only sound
MMS 2024 - can not read file.
A little odd that VPX works after the codec is downloaded by Vegas Pro but its little brother MMS still doesn't like the file; particularly when free editors like Capcut can read it with no problem.
How can I put a positive spin on this....MMS 2024 is just as good as Davinci Resolve in this instance!😀
Hi
. . . . A little odd that VPX works after the codec is downloaded by Vegas Pro . . . . .
See my comment here on page 2 of this topic.
. . . . but its little brother MMS still doesn't like the file; . . . .
This one of the features that differentiates prosumer from professional software, the same as Vegas 'editions' are differentiated with extra features.
. . . . MMS 2024 is just as good as Davinci Resolve . . . .
Having tested resolve, my opinion may start a 'flame war'. It is not an editor I would move to.
John EB
I think MMS is not capable of working with 10 bit files in general. It does not have the ability to export with as many colour spaces as is available to VPX and Vegas Pro. It is one of the many dividing abilities that are missing from MMS in it's tiered position within the Magix family.
These wrappers / codecs are not free to use to those companies that are not involved with their co-development and can get expensive to buy. Those that do participate in the development are at an advantage and do not have to pay for their use. One of the many things that increases the price of a program is the amount of such codecs / wrappers that are prepaid for in the software.
Ray.
That's what I thought and expected.
But Magix needs to solve the recurring problems with importing different video formats and codecs better. If you consider that free software like CapCut, KDENLIVE or ShotCut simply import everything.
You both make valid points in defence of Magix. But I also think @Marc-Goder's point is just as valid. We are making a lot of assumptions. The first assumption is this is legitimate pricing and second we found a loophole by owning Vegas Pro. It also may be the case that in the past this was a true cost to Magix but today is no longer the case. Someone just "forgot" to delete the code. And no-one is going to make a fuss to make the correction as long as people are willing to pay.
I hope my assumption is true for the following reason. After submitting my list of programs that were able to read @Reyfox's file, I realised I had two free portable video editors on a thumb drive. Shotcut and OpenShot. Guess what, they both played the file. I don't consider Shotcut, OpenShot, Capcut, Videostudio and Pinnacle Studio professional editors. Pinnacle Studio, I classify as prosumer. Three of these editors are free and the last two are priced around the same as MMS. There is really no excuse. And to suggest that MMS 2024 isn't capable of reading this file is actually worrying. but I don't believe it. The code is same as VPX; its just turned off. For this year Magix has to really think hard on how to make their products viable in this competitive market. Their new mantra should be; "We can do that and even more!"
Hi
. . . . You both make valid points in defence of Magix . . . . The first assumption is this is legitimate pricing and second we found a loophole by owning Vegas Pro.
Not always, we do complain about something's and I do agree with Marc's comment.
The issue of licencing was thrown into turmoil a few years ago regarding licencing where Dolby took a well known company to court for 'flouting' of the licencing agreement for the AC3 Surround Sound codec, the outcome caused a lot of companies, to drop support for the AC3SS codec for export.
. . . . There is really no excuse. And to suggest that MMS 2024 isn't capable of reading this file is actually worrying . . . .
Why - as I said product differentiation.
As to the other programs you tested, assuming you ran them on the same computer as Vegas is installed on, they could be picking up the codec.
. . . . I think MMS is not capable of working with 10 bit files in general . . . .
I would modify this comment to:
MMS 2024 can read 10 bit files, however they must be a supported format. Chromakey subsampling formats 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 are not supported.
John EB
There is a big difference between a program built by enthusiasts that donate their time over a company trying to pay it's workers / shareholders etc. Often such offerings lag behind what is commercially available with Openshot being a case in point where if you want to do anything complex you have to use another free program such as Blender with yet another learning curve. Parts of Openshot if you need anything that is not available in the drop-down menus starts to resemble working in Linux. They are just getting into hardware acceleration, and have no OFX support.
The Magix approach has been one that has come from it's very early beginnings offering from basic to complex solutions. Even then there are learning curves to each and basic users may not need most of the functions of the more expensive releases. The more complex a program gets the more you end up having to know. The more choice, the more things can go pair shaped. Programming is not easy nor is it without cost of development.
That is basic business. Only market pressure causes change and the current financial climate may well make some of those changes you are hankering over. Magix does not have control over other intellectual property rights. So some bits are missing because Magix made the decision not to include the bits that cost them extra to provide in the lower tiers and restrict the program to less complex and demanding wrappers / codecs that would slow down the exporting of such projects on the lower end computers that the program tries to encompass and still export at reasonable speeds and play back reasonably complex file types smoothly on the timeline.
It's a pity Openshot does not have its own forum to see exactly how many people have problems with it.
Even they have a warning to the extent of not to expect miracles and that the better the computer, the better the results should be.
Up to a point I agree with you though. Magix is spread too thin. Too many programs for a small workforce to keep up to date with and I expect something will eventually have to give but how that will pan out I have no idea.
As for the other free offerings, look closely at the terms and conditions. What data are you giving away? I can't find the terms and conditions for Shotcut and that is made by a Russian business, has pretty much the same limitations as Openshot. Maybe I am paranoid but I get enough scam spam emails as it is.
In the end the consumer will rule and get what they deserve and they do currently have choices. I wonder why people still complain about bought software when the free stuff is available. Just because something is downloadable doesn't mean there is no cost involved.
Ray.
@johnebaker wrote:
This one of the features that differentiates prosumer from professional software, the same as Vegas 'editions' are differentiated with extra features.
. . . . MMS 2024 is just as good as Davinci Resolve . . . .
Having tested resolve, my opinion may start a 'flame war'. It is not an editor I would move to.
John EB
The difference between the different "editions" of Vegas Pro has nothing to do with the core editing features. Whether Vegas Edit or Post, the editor is the same. The difference is the addons (plugins) that come with the editor. There is no codec that one can edit and the other edition can't.
I have Resolve Studio. I've had it for several years now with the Speed Editor. The software has some stellar features for sure. The reason I have it is that I know BMD is not going anywhere with ending the software since they can afford to give it away for free to the world. Their income is from their hardware. Whereas Magix depends solely on it's software sales to exist. Resolve is a "fail safe" for me if Magix disappears. I will be able to still edit, not worrying about whether the Magix servers will go down making my software non-functional.
@CubeAce, Pinnacle Studio can edit 10bit files from my camera, but the export will be 8bit. Just like with Vegas, you can edit in a 10 bit space and render to an 8bit file. I am not sure that any software "company" has been involved in codecs except maybe Apple with ProRes or BMD with BRAW that works in their prospective editors. It's a rabbit hole I am avoiding. That is why companies have to pay license fees. But you are right, codecs do add to the cost of software. The software company are hoping maybe you don't activate the codec where they will have to pay for each activation. Pinnacle made the Bluray option available at a cost, since it's a licensing situation. They used to make it free, activated when you wanted to burn a bluray. Under $10 IIRC.
Like you, I am not a fan of data mining. I fight with M$ turning things off after an update, so certain software will never be installed on my computer unless it's in my "sandbox" for testing. Win11 Pro has a sandbox built in. Keeps things safe and from spreading on my computer. It's like a virtual machine.
It has been mentioned that maybe installing Vegas has has added the codec to other software mentioned. Then why not MMS? I do have MMS 2024 Suite installed. I have suggested it as an additional editing tool to the Videostudio Pro and Pinnacle Studio users with the 10bit caveat. The VS users will be able to transition to MMS easier than the PS users for the way the timeline edits. Oh, and Pinnacle Studio has had the ability to handle 10bit files without Vegas help. Yeah, I know... I was a beta tester for it for 12 years. Videostudio Pro, not quite as long.
The question is, would adding 10bit to MMS cannibalize VPX sales? Maybe, maybe not. Magix would have the info on how many activate the 10bit codec in VPX. In the Vegas world, almost everyone does since a lot of users edit in the 10bit world. It's a "norm", not an "exception".
I do have a question that I might have to answer for myself. How many here record 4K HEVC? Usually that is 10bit.
How many here record 4K HEVC? Usually that is 10bit.
Hi, both my phone Samsung S23 Ultra & GoPro 11 have the option of 8bit or 10bit. I work in 8bit only. 😉
Hi
. . . . The difference between the different "editions" of Vegas Pro has nothing to do with the core editing features . . .
Agreed, that is why I wrote 'extra features'.
. . . . The question is, would adding 10bit to MMS cannibalize VPX sales? . . . .
Perhaps I did not make it clear in the last paragraph of my previous post:
'MMS 2024 can read 10 bit files, however they must be a supported format. Chromakey subsampling formats 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 are not supported.'
I should have included 'HEVC 10 bit 4:2:0' - which was introduced with MEP 2017.
John EB
Thanks @Ehemaliger User. My camera can shoot HEVC 4K 10bit but never bother to shoot with it.
@johnebaker so MMS can edit HEVC 4K 10 bit 4:2:0?
I've never shot in HEVC because on the hardware demands which could compromise timeline editing performance.
Hi
. . . . MMS can edit HEVC 4K 10 bit 4:2:0 . . . .
Yes - see image below
MMS 2024
. . . . HEVC because on the hardware demands which could compromise timeline editing performance . . . . .
It can, depending on what effects are applied.
John EB
@johnebaker I found a file that fit the HEVC/10bit/420 and it worked in MMS 2024.
But what I noticed when playing back the file several times in a row, the computer RAM was going higher and higher. If I kept at it, I would have all my computer RAM used up. This with a single file is 11 seconds long. That's it. 925MB in size.
@CubeAce you can read about rec.709 HERE. It is basically an industry standard for color.
you can read about rec.709 HERE. It is basically an industry standard for color.
Importantly, 709 is used only for HD ie 720 and above. For SD, the BT601 colour space must be used. All decent video capture devices capture using BT601.
If you export an SD/601 video into HD eg 1920x1080, Magix will automatically change the video to 709.
In truth I was expecting to see BT2020 as @terrerad has pointed out but his explanation seems to make sense and possibly only needed if using a camera capturing raw footage, which if similar to my still tiff images from my DSLR do not have an embedded colour space but instead capture the raw sensor data at 16 bits. I have as yet to get a camera that supports 10 bit video let alone a 10 bit monitor.
Ray.
@CubeAce, @AAProds, @terrerad, @Reyfox
Hi everyone
BT 2020 is the colour space for 'straight' HDR video.
However this is not necessary when using the S-Log, Cine D etc which are 'colour curves' - compressing the BT 2020 space into BT709 see image below, the video being 10 bit has a greater dynamic range allowing this to be done without compromising the colours.
In camera - the Source monitor is showing the original scene and the Program monitor when the Cine D S-Log will look like when imported into the editor with a 'washed out' appearance.
In the editor - when the correction LUT is applied in the editor the colour space is 'expanded' again.
By using these 'curves' the Lows and Highs retain more detail even when viewed on an 8bit/channel colour monitor.
The lake is real, up in the mountains on the border between Austria and Switzerland.
John EB