@johnebaker

Hi John,

Thank you for your insight.

I noticed that under export to MP4, there is no BT.2020 Color Space available, only under export to HEVC.

With the exception of one of my cell phones, I shoot in 1080. I sometimes shoot at 2.7k with my GoPro, but just for the zooming possibility. My TV's are full HD, no 4K, so I almost always export to 1080. I rarely export to DVD or BR. I need to actually finish a project instead of playing around.

Thus, given the above and your reply, the template setup that I should use is with:

1. Effects/Movie Settings (Master effects) - Color Space Correction turned on (to limit levels to between 7.5 and 100)
2. Waveform Monitor Display 7.5 IRE Black checked so that 7.5 and 100 show up
3. Project Settings/Movie Settings Color Space set to BT.709

Correct?

Is that what you do?

@Scenestealer @emmrecs

Peter and Jeff and other users, what do you do, if anything?

Under Effects/Movie Settings (Master effects), do any of you use other adjustments as presets? If so, what?

I will open another thread about adjusting the levels using the various tool - curves, gamma, etc.

Thanks,

John CB

@browj2

Hi John

I only set BT.709.

As I am not creating for TV broadcast, I have not found it necessary to use the IRE or Colour space correction options (yet), mainly because, despite all my best efforts to get the colours correctly balanced and true, it is not possible to control how viewers have their monitors and TV colour settings set up.

I take the philosophical attitude that so long as the videos are at their best on my TV and PC monitors - the latter being colour corrected monthly, then that is fine.

HTH

John EB

@johnebaker

Hi John,

According to what I have learned, details in the whites above 100 could be lost, that is, everything above 100 would be crushed. The example given in one case was a white wedding dress; some of the definition of folds and lace could be lost at the high end. Thus, bringing the highs down would prevent this. I'm assuming that this would only happen on a TV. I would need to test this.

The same thing would happen with the dark tones. Any definition below 7.5 would be lost on TV.

In the next thread, I'll show an example of Bernadette in the snow with footprints in the snow.

From what you say, you do not turn on Effects/Movie Settings (Master effects) - Color Space Correction, but you are now turning on BT.709 under the new Color Space settings of Project Settings/Movie Settings. Correct?

John CB

@browj2

Hi John

. . . . you are now turning on BT.709 under the new Color Space settings of Project Settings/Movie Settings. Correct? . . . .

That is correct - avoids 'double jeopardy'

John EB

@johnebaker

Hi John,

For the new Color Space settings of Project Settings/Movie Settings, Magix indicates, "You can now select HDR, Full HD/UHD or SD as color space for your project in Video Pro X. New options for color space within the program allow you to visualize the finest nuances of color and ranges in contrast. Experience enhanced visual control and precision in your color correction workflow."

I don't know what this means in actual practice. Does this mean that I now see more nuances of colour or something?

As for Effects/Movie Settings (Master effects) - Color Space Correction turned on (to limit levels to between 7.5 and 100), I don't see how this could be double jeopardy. Other than limiting levels to between 7.5 and 100, what else does it do that could conflict with the new Color Space feature or that could be harmful?

The manual states, "Color space correction: This option is effective against powerful colors that violate TV standards and can no longer be displayed correctly on-screen. The color saturation of the affected material is thereby reduced until the maximum permitted value is reached." I interpret this as: 1) limiting the luminance levels, and 2) limiting saturation to the maximum permitted.

I intentionally zoomed in on Bernadette's red coat and put saturation to the max. Here are the VectorScope and RGB Parade images with Effects/Movie Settings (Master effects) - Color Space Correction turned off and on.

The green lines should actually be arcs. I presume that this is the "legal" limit for saturation, correct (see my question at the end)?

I understand this to mean that turning on the Master effect - Color Space Correction, will protect against oversaturation. Of course, like the luminance, some parts could be crushed against the saturation maximum limit in both cases.

Saturation: how does one determine the limits? I looked in the manual: "Check compatibility of color values: To ensure compatibility with industry standards, the color values should not exceed the color space limits. Areas in the image with oversaturated colors can be recognized in the vectorscope at points that lie on the outside of the color space limits."

Also,"If a color is oversaturated, the color saturation limit can be clearly recognized."

"Clearly recognized?" Really? How does one identify the "color space limits" or the "color saturation limit" in the Vectorscope? I see L-shapes and 4-part rectangular grids. What do they mean?

John CB

@browj2

Hi John

. . . . the new Color Space settings . . . . "You can now select HDR, Full HD/UHD or SD as color space for your project in Video Pro X. . . . . the finest nuances of color and ranges in contrast. . . . . I don't know what this means in actual practice. Does this mean that I now see more nuances of colour or something? . . . .

I interpret this as saying you should see truer colours when using BT.2020 vs BT.709 vs BT.601 - the colour space image in the HDTV with BT.709 section of this article may help.

. . . . Color space correction: This option is effective against powerful colors that violate TV standards and can no longer be displayed correctly on-screen. The color saturation of the affected material is thereby reduced until the maximum permitted value is reached." I interpret this as: 1) limiting the luminance levels, and 2) limiting saturation to the maximum permitted. . . . .

This applies to the RGB levels limiting them to the IRE 16 - 235 range so as not to over drive/saturate the signal levels in the composite video for broadcast.

For the Vectorscope components and how they are used - this is described in the second paragraph onward of the Video section of this article and is specific to the broadcast TV signal levels, the Waveform display is also broadcast signal specific.

HTH

John EB

@johnebaker

Hi John,

Thanks for the references. Any in English?😬

"Often two sets of bar targets are provided: one for color bars at 75% amplitude and one for color bars at 100% amplitude. The 100% bars represent the maximum amplitude (of the composite signal) that composite encoding allows for. 100% bars are not suitable for broadcast and are not broadcast-safe. 75% bars have reduced amplitude and are broadcast-safe."

In the image, on the 9 o'clock line, is 100% and 75%. But 100% is closer in than 75%, so I'm lost.

Still looking for an explanation of the L-shaped and 4-part grid patterns.

Thanks,

John CB

Aha! I think I'm starting to understand. I brought in 2 test images - 100/100 (NTSC), 100/75 (NTSC) and 75/75 (NTSC) and observed the differences with Effects/Movie Settings (Master effects) - Color Space Correction turned on and off. More later.

John CB

@johnebaker

Here is what I see with Effects/Movie Settings (Master effects) - Color Space Correction turned off. The test image 100/100 (NTSC) puts a dot in the 100% box; the 100/75 (NTSC) and 75/75 (NTSC) images put a dot in the 75% box. (There are some other dots with lower values).

I created a colour swatch in Xara from Red to Cyan. Here is the result still with the Effects/Movie Settings (Master effects) - Color Space Correction turned off:

Here is the result still with the Effects/Movie Settings (Master effects) - Color Space Correction turned on:

This shows that turning on Color Space Correction limits (or reduces?) the saturation to somewhere between 75 and 100%, so it would seem that the maximum permitted is more than 75%, less than 100%.

Now to see how these look on my TV.

John CB

@browj2

@johnebaker

I am reading this with some interest as it is very similar to problems regarding processing raw files in photographic terms.

If I can make a few observations.

None of this matters if the in camera footage is not exposed correctly as shadow and highlight information will already be missing. That bright sunlight needs to be tamed by the use of ND filters or you will suffer blowouts in the bright areas and any other means of taming them will mean losing detail in the shadows as the exposure time of each frame drops.

I don't know if there is a way to correctly set up a TV colour space. Can it be connected to something like a color munki and be used to correct the output?

I agree strongly with John EB that even if you get it looking good on one TV it probably won't on a second TV.

Even broadcasting companies struggle with this on outside broadcasts such as for new items but in general they are now dealing with log or raw data that is 10 bit or higher and does need to be reigned in more to produce files that can be broadcast.

Even if you get things such as saturation sorted it's going to be upset again by anyone who hasn't set their TV up as most TVs are still 8bit monitors. My Samsung TV has at least 24 individual sliders for colour correction and left on the default values has terrible trouble around reds in general. If I tune it so say BBC1 looks brilliant then ITV looks over-saturated and the History channel looks bland. Sometimes the same program broadcast by two different channels looks completely different to each other.

Personally, to me it make more sense to get it right in camera and spend less time on correction in post. It saves a lot of time in photography and I'm beginning to find the same is true when doing video but much harder to achieve as angles change wile recording in more than one direction changing the background lighting and the shadow areas.

I do wish you luck in your endeavors John but don't get too caught up in the technicalities of post production when most people, apart from the person making a video, don't notice such things unless it is really bad footage. More people comment on bad focus and sound along with stuttering panning and grain, when say watching YouTube before they notice things like colour correction.

Ray.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray,

Well, it's too late to reshoot everything from the last 50+ years, so I'm trying to get routines down that help me quickly get the best that I can.

Most video that I have does have detail in the shadows and in the highs and I don't have much trouble with those adjustments. I just want to start with a proper set up and go from there.

Look at my other post and you'll see some of the problems and solutions, but that is downstream of just getting things set up.

I was making adjustments using the RGB colour curve to bring up the dark parts to 7.5 and lower the bright parts to 100, as per what I have read and seen about getting luminance levels in the "legal" range. With this new Color Space thing, and the bug whereby Magix removed the checkbox from the Effects/Movie Settings (Master effects) - Color Space Correction (IIRC) and then put it back quickly, got me to try it and I found that I didn't need to make the RGB luminance corrections - it was done automatically. This lead me to try to understand exactly what was going on. I think that I have the key now for the set up.

I'll post the video with the other thread and you'll see that walking with a camera did not give stable lighting conditions. Look at the timeline screen shot with the Gamma curve. I can't control lighting in the forest, so it has to be done in post. In my test case, raising the curve in the darker parts gave me whiter snow, but still preserved the detail of the footprints in the snow.

Since you don't have the scopes in MEPP, you likely won't be aware of what happens, and how to quickly make appropriate adjustments to get better looking images. See the other thread.

You point about not getting too caught up in the technical details is well taken. However, reading some of the long posts about the trials and tribulations, complications and intricacies of export parameters, left me wondering if those involved spent much time doing actual editing. I just export using the parameters; they work. However, getting to that point is a major chore.

John CB

@browj2

Hi John

. . . . turning on Color Space Correction limits (or reduces?) the saturation to somewhere between 75 and 100%, so it would seem that the maximum permitted is more than 75%, less than 100% . . .

I have noticed this as well, since you started this post I have been diving deeper into this and have found the same as you - it is more visible in the Waveform meter as well.

I forgot to say earlier that one of the reasons I do not use the meters much is that my camera has a 'Zebra' setting - it has 2 options IRE 70 and IRE 100 and displays a zebra pattern in/on the viewfinder/monitor when the video signal exceeds the preset value. This has come in handy on occasions where the brightness/contrast range of the scene exceeds the cameras capabilities eg interiors shot with brilliant sunshine outside and windows in the scene. There is no option but to blow out the highlights, lose shadow detail or make a compromise, for this I normally use the IRE 100 setting.

@CubeAce

. . . . That bright sunlight needs to be tamed by the use of ND filters or you will suffer blowouts in the bright areas and any other means of taming them will mean losing detail in the shadows as the exposure time of each frame drops . . . .

Very true - easy with a DSLR and static subjects:

Edit 1: Auto bracketing - 5 shots up to ± 2 stops then use software to create a pseudo 'HDR' image, many good image editing programs have this feature.

Edit 2: I gave an example of this in this comment back in March 2016.

For video much more difficult to achieve, particularly if you are trying maintain a specific depth of field (focus) - this is where the Zebra comes in handy as I described above.

For still images RAW is the almost perfect format to shoot in however trying to get the scene exactly as you saw it is virtually impossible - the human brain is very bad at remembering colours with a a degree of precision * - and has a higher contrast range than most digital cameras. The big advantage of RAW is that you can make the scene look however you want it to be from the same shot. When I was teaching Digital photography I only lightly touched on the subject as it is can be a very deep rabbit hole.

I would suggest, if your camera has it, to shoot in RAW + JPG mode, then you have a (hopefully) reasonable reference shot.

* To test this - take a solid coloured object with you to a DIY/paint shop, before entering look at the object and 'remember' its colour then put it in your pocket, go to the paint charts and select the colour you think matches the object then compare it with the object.

John EB

Hi John CB;

I noticed that under export to MP4, there is no BT.2020 Color Space available, only under export to HEVC.

Only UHD / HEVC support BT.2020 Color Gamuts and color bit depth sould in 10 bits

DéDé.

@johnebaker

Hi John,

Thanks for the link back to the Colour Correction post. There were more that I found.

Right now, I'm just trying to get the luminance corrected and I'll come back to colour correction, including white balance, in another thread, if I have the stamina. I don't think that you ever did the tutorial about it that you mentioned way back when, did you?

While we're on that topic, there is no keyframing possibility of the colour curves either.

There is no colour picker in the place where we need one, like under Brightness/Contrast. However, there is one under Glow that you can use. The only problem is that it gives RGB from 0 to 1.

@sasiuk

Hi Dédé,

Thanks for the information. I assume that the bit depth of 10 would have to be in the 4K source file, would it not?

The only place that I see that BT.2020 with the possibility of indicating bit depth is under Export to HEVC. Do you see this anywhere else?

Thanks,

John CB

@johnebaker

Hi John EB

Yes the Zebra stripes in video is very useful and again depends a lot upon the bit depth some cameras shoot at. Some cameras that did video in the past have been very low in bit depth but didn't advertise it.

For stills I shoot exclusively 14 bit uncompressed raw or 16 bit tiff as my stills cameras do both, but even then as you say there are limitations compared to what our eyes can see and in the end it's how it comes out in print form that matters mainly for still photography. Setting up a custom white balance is quite quick and easy and I can do it on the fly in under ten seconds. Even then, not paying attention to colour temperature will often result in one colour channel saturating before the other two can reach their optimum dynamic range. (I don't auto bracket at all but would prefer if needed to use a fill in flash as most of my images are about events and the people rather than locations) The problem for DSLR over mirrorless is you don't get a WYSIWYG output on the screen (If you even use the screen on a DSLR).  

On higher end video cameras do you get a choice of evaluative metering? It can be useful to be able to select at times although I think video wise, if I shoot with a DSLR I would choose matrix over spot or center weighed for video as it helps as does having a flat colour profile to select if I wanted to do any post correction to the footage.

ND filters in photography are less useful unless you intend to take long exposures or need to record some motion within a shot or the neat trick of taking a shot of a place devoid of people when it's actually packed with them.  Again,all my stills cameras go up to a 1/8000s shutter speed and I don't  know how long a bulb exposure could be but it's really long (possibly hours as there is correction in camera for hot pixel syndrom) for star trails but I don't do much of that either.

As for your last point. That's what the Xrite ColorChecker Passport is for 😉

Personally I have found ND filters more useful for video than for stills.But then we should remember the same rules that apply to photography should be tried to be adhered to for video, such as not shooting into the sun or have a decent lens hood if you have to do that kind of thing.

I do appreciate if someone is using old footage none of the options mentioned applies but if the dynamic range is not there in the first place it's hard to get it back through post editing although it may be able to make it look 'better'.

Then there is the viewing monitor and Windows in general. I'm not sure Windows will give a 10 bit output in itself. I will have to delve into that. It must be able to do something as there is a definite difference between opening a raw file in a dedicated raw editor and just viewing using a Windows app where the dedicated editor gives much a much more accurate and wider gamut than Windows on its own seems to be able to provide. Monitors and graphics cards also play a major role in this, as does viewing conditions. I find it difficult to know where to draw the line on those parameters alone. As I said on John CB's other thread, I can't even get similar output at present between my two monitors.

Then there is the measurement taken within an editor vs what your screen is showing you. Set up two screens, each with different colour profiles. Open the editor in one and the readings if you are using some form of tool giving you the colour output will read the same on both monitors regardless of what you actually see. So how to adjust what you work on? This is when I worry about, as you put it, 'how far down the rabbit hole do you go?'

That's why I found this thread interesting..

With still photography, if you print the result everyone that sees the image sees the same thing, allowing for variation in each others eyesight.

On a screen things get much more tricky if we don't all see or use the same screen and whatever we do will probably be outdated within a decade. The first raw files I ever took look so much better within a new editor using the newer processing engines, logarithms etc, as they do a better job than they did in 2009. My monitors are also better allowing me to notice the difference. The raw file hasn't changed but what can be extrapolated from it seems to have increased.

@browj2

Bit depth. Source files or monitor?

I would say a bit of both. Without the source file of sufficient bit depth the extra bits get effectively binned if working in a higher bit environment but maybe not in the way one would expect. If we say white is 0 and black is 1 then the amount of bits is the amount of steps between black and white. White will be as white as your screen will go or is set to and black is as black as your monitor allows it to get. A difference of 2 bits is a lot larger than one would expect and can have a large impact on what you see.

If your monitor does not have enough bit depth to display the amount of steps within the file then colours can be misrepresented as the correct colour shade or tonal brightness cannot be displayed. This has little to do with how bright you monitor is but how much it can subdivide the information into the steps between the lightest and darkest parts of the image. This is what is then known as out of Gamut as the display is incapable of displaying the information correctly. Some tools show how much this can be out by in some photo editors so I expect the same is probably true for video but don't have enough experience to say.

Ray.

@browj2

Hi John

Thanks for starting these two threads. It is one of those areas that we would like to understand better but never make the time to explore. I could have added some things earlier but have not had the time to write something coherent. Never the less, you have worked out a lot of what I (very) loosely understand.

Just on your last comment:-

The extra bit depth is necessary when using Wide Colour Gamut in order to maintain the same colour accuracy as when using standard REC709 colour gamut because of the extra distance between the colours.

10bit / 12bit can be HD also. Extra bit depth is also selectable for Pro Res export. This is now called Intermediate Codec in VPX - must be because of some licensing issue with Apple or something.

From your initial questions:-

My responses would be similar to @johnebaker - as my material is not going to broadcast I just play around until I get something that looks good on the PC and my Plasma TV. I usually push every thing up near 100 and just above zero on the wave form. I tend to use the RGB parade as my main instrument as it tells you what colours might be clipping plus overall colour balance.

Q1 4k can be 709 if it is not shot with extra bit depth or extended colour range.

Q2 & 3 If you set 2020 / HDR in the project settings then the Instruments will reflect this when set to Auto - the help files recommendation for "Norm" settings.

Q6 The blue flash button will turn the colour space correction on and off if disable effects is ticked, because it is a global Effect. Auto Exposure and Auto Lighting have been linked for some time now as Auto colour applies a Contrast level at the same time. Auto Lighting does not turn on Auto colour though for obvious reasons.

Keep up the good work! I will make some comments in the other thread soon.

Peter

Hi John CB,

I assume that the bit depth of 10 would have to be in the 4K source file, would it not?

The first generation of 4k footages (XAVC codec) is with 8 bit color depht and REC.709

To switch to 50 or 60 FPS, the HEVC codec is currently used for 4k footages with 8 bit color depht and REC.709.

To shot in HDR you have to extend the color gamut to 10 bits and assign an extended color space switch (REC.2020). HDR mode is only supported by HEVC (H265) codec (from my knowledge).

I don't know how VPX supports HDR because I'm at version 17.0.1.31 and I'm not going to update it. I switched to Vegas Pro.

The only place that I see that BT.2020 with the possibility of indicating bit depth is under Export to HEVC. Do you see this anywhere else?

As said by Peter, you can also select BT.2020 Color Gamuts with the intermediate codec of VPX (ProRes 422 HQ).

Be aware that the selection of the BT2020 color space can generate colorimetric errors on a TV set or a monitor, especially if these devices are only intended for BT.601 or BT.709.
For video editing in BT.2020 it is strongly recommended to work on an HDR monitor which correctly manages the display transformation in Rec2020 1000 nits (ACES) and a recent graphics card. I don't know if the latest version of VPX supports display transformation.

Regards.

DéDé.

@sasiuk

Hi Dédé,

Thanks for the detailed explanation. It would be good if Magix updated its manual to properly cover all of this, in language that most users could understand, and with details about source files (camera format), hardware and eventual destinations.

I don't have a camera that can shoot HDR, 10 bit, nor a 4K TV, nor a 4K or HDR monitor, so I can remain in my comfort zone. But for others, it would be nice to have clear information, not just the adverts on the Magix.com site.

I do have a GoPro Hero5 that shoots ProTune GoPro Color or Flat. I am about to see what happens using Flat. I also have 4K videos from cell phones, but my projects are all 1080.

@Scenestealer

Thanks for your reply and encouragement.

You mention "Auto Lighting." Where do you see that?

Also, "I usually push every thing up near 100 and just above zero on the wave form." This would indicate that you are turning on the Waveform Monitor Display 7.5 IRE Black so that you see 7.5 and 100 on the left side of the Waveform monitor. Correct?

Last night, I watched my first video exported with Effects/Movie Settings (Master effects) - Color Space Correction turned on. This limited the brights to below 100. I found that much of my video was still a bit too bright. Sometimes, what looked good on my monitor was too bright on the TV. Anyway, I am glad that turning on the master effects reduces the brightness so that I don't have to worry about it as much.

John CB

Hi John CB,

I shoot my 4K videos with a Panasonic TZ200 (MP4, UHD, AVC, 25P, 4:2:0, 8 bits, BT.709, 100 Mbs)

I'm starting to experiment 4k HDR videos shooted with a Samsung S10 or an iPhone X Smartphones but for a correct HDR edition, I don't have a recent graphics card and even less a 4K HDR monitor!

I agree 200% with you that MAGIX should publish more informations on new functions or new technologies like HDR videos.

Protune is rather intended for color grading.
If you set Protune colors flat in the GoPro settings, under VPX you have the Protune preset (CUBE file) -> Object Properties.

DéDé.

@browj2

You mention "Auto Lighting." Where do you see that?

Sorry, that was a throwback to earlier versions of Magix where they called Auto Exposure Auto Lighting - same thing.

I don't turn on IRE 7.5. I am in PAL land.

@CubeAce

Your moniker seems to be coming up every time now - how's mine going?

I'm not sure Windows will give a 10 bit output in itself.

It must do or Magix would not be able to use the Program Setting "Output to monitors with higher bit depth". I think Nvidia Geforce cards from 9xx series on support 10 bit output.

Peter