Yes, here are my Movie project settings:

@RGBguy

Confirmed. Here is a capture on the timeline verses in the Preview window:

It occurs in MMS 2024 as well. Seems to be a bug; we should get what we see but we're not.

I do a lot of this analogue capture stuff and don't use Magix for capture; now I know why! 😊

I use AmarecTV. My guide for it's set up and use is here.

After you have captured your AVI, simply bring it into MEP 2021 for editing. MMS 2024 does not handle AVIs properly so if you have an inclination to upgrade, get back to us first.

Yes, that is very much the behavior I'm seeing here with the loss of contrast going from the capture preview to the editor preview. And exported movies end up looking flat like the editor preview.

Hi @AAProds and @RGBguy,

I realise this is an old post. I'm new to the forum and recently purchased MMS 2024. @AAProds would you elaborate on your comment regarding MMS2024 not handling AVIs properly or post the link to the post where this issue is discussed?

Just on this particular issue, do you know if this "bug" has been corrected with an update/hotfix? Also, I wonder if an adjustment to the proc amps would help with the capture? BTW thanks for the link to your guide. It will prove useful to me in the future.🙂

@Can-Dive

would you elaborate on your comment regarding MMS2024 not handling AVIs properly

Welcome aboard, Candive. Analogue AVIs don't have display aspect ratio information stored in them, so programs don't know how to display them. PAL analogue AVIs are 720x576 and should be displayed at 4:3, but because the ratio isn't stored, most programs will display them at face-value ie 5:4 (which is 720/576). Earlier versions of Magix automatically applied the "4:3" DAR to any 720x576 file on import, so all was well. But when the new Size Position Rotation effect was introduced, the 4:3 is no longer applied (the video imports as 720x576 1:1); what's worse is that you can't change the object properties to 4:3.; it's already set to that. And nothing happens when you change the ratio to 5:4 either.

What this means is that when you import an AVI, the image is squashed horizontally (720x576 displayed as 5:4 instead of 4;3). The image can be stretched out to 4:3 ie 768x576 with the SPR effect, but as soon as you try to apply the Section effect to do some cropping (eg to remove the head-switching noise), you lose the SPR effect and the image narrows, which makes the Section effect unusable.

My workaround is to open the capture in VirtualDub2 and export it as 768x576, still as an AVI . MMS 2024 will then import the file "correctly", displaying it as 4:3 (ie 768x576).

I have submitted a bug report about this.

I wonder if an adjustment to the proc amps would help with the capture?

It may do, but then you'd be compensating for an artificial error. As I mentioned above, I don't use Magix to capture because I do stuff to the video in VDub before editing in Magix, which gets around the Magix capture issue.

Another thing to consider: the Magix capture codec options are limited. MPEG is not a good codec since it is lossy and therefore suffers more degradation when edited. MXV, while pretty much lossless, is proprietary to Magix and therefore unusable in other programs. As video processing software/technique improves, it's always a good idea to use a popular industry codec so you can go back to the original capture files later and rework them.

Hi @AAProds

Thank you for your comprehensive answer. I admit, I was not aware of this 4:3 vs 5:4 issue. Do you know if this problem exists across different video editors? For example, to your knowledge, does Vegas Pro have this issue?

Going through your AmarecTV guide, please correct me if I make some wrong assumptions. Based on the driver selected it looks like you are using an IO Data capture device and you are using the Lagarith codec? I assume you import Lagarith into MMS without any issue? Or do you transcode the file into another codec?

You indicated that this problem exists for Analog AVI's because they don't have display aspect ratio information stored in them. Can I assume that if I capture (pass through) a digital signal via firewire to a DV AVI, this file will have the display aspect ratio and therefore does not suffer from this problem?

Furthermore, I would like to apologise to the OP and Moderators since my first question has lead to a series of questions which have gone beyond the scope of this post and in retrospect I should have started a new post. But @AAProds, I'm sure your answers will satiate my curiosity and I will cease further questioning.

In conclusion I hope the washout look and 4:3 issue will be addressed in a future update to MMS/VPX. Thanks again @AAProds for taking the time to answer my questions.🙂

@Can-Dive

Hi

. . . . I would like to apologise to the OP and Moderators since my first question has lead to a series of questions which have gone beyond the scope of this post and in retrospect I should have started a new post. . . . .

Technically a new post would be a better option, however, IMO, the 'drift' is relevant as other users coming across this post will have a fuller picture of the issues which can arise when capturing from tape.

As @AAProds commented:

'Analogue AVIs don't have display aspect ratio information stored in them, so programs don't know how to display them'

AVI was standardised in the early 1990's. and without that Aspect Ratio (AR) data the default is to fall back to the width/height of the video to determine the AR.

Al and @browj2 , are the forums experts in this area - I have not done any captures for a very long while.

I agree with Al's recommendations to get the best recording quality you can, this gives you maximum scope for adjustments such as colour correction and denoising, however I would add, other recording formats, such as h.264 MP4, which applies compression to reduce the file size, are acceptable formats to use and do not suffer from the AR issue.

One important point to remember is that VHS recordings are inherently low 'resolution, to start with, the signal is analog, and there is no specific horizontal resolution, however the generally accepted resolution is 240 x 576 (PAL) and 240 x 480 (NTSC).

I would not advise trying to upscale to a resolution higher than DVD (720x576 PAL. 720x480 NTSC), and if you are going to be doing a lot of tape captures look at NeatVideo denoiser to de-noise the video.

HTH

John EB
Forum Moderator

@Can-Dive

I was not aware of this 4:3 vs 5:4 issue. Do you know if this problem exists across different video editors? For example, to your knowledge, does Vegas Pro have this issue?

I couldn't say. We do have a few Vegas users here though so they could try this file:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SQyHimA2AAgYKAL3oM06l7pA37YUeKo4/view?usp=sharing

(I've cropped this one to remove the bar side bars and headswitching noise).

If it isn't interpreted as 4:3 on import, I daresay the clip display aspect ratio could be set to 4:3.

I assume you import Lagarith into MMS without any issue? Or do you transcode the file into another codec?

Yes. Interestingly, on my old machine, HUFFYUV and LAGS were a nightmare as random frames from other parts of the clip would appear in other places on the timeline. The phenomenon is called "frame salad". But on my new machine, no such problems; I don't know whether it is due to more RAM or better handling due to the GPU. That said, I do tend to use MagicYUV now as it is apparently faster that HUFF or LAGS and didn't exhibit the frame salad issue.

Can I assume that if I capture (pass through) a digital signal via firewire to a DV AVI, this file will have the display aspect ratio and therefore does not suffer from this problem?

Yes. It's only analogue AVI captures that have the "no stored aspect ratio" issue.

Re the quality of VHS-type captures, don't be put off by the apparent low resolution. Provided your tape is in reasonable condition, you can achieve great results even with 2nd generation copies. Have a look at my two YT channels, https://www.youtube.com/@rodentflyingfilms7868 and https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdEl9LDZhgNingmNW0K4zRQ where most of those videos are second-gen VHS captures and have been upscaled in Magix to 1920x1440 to give best YT quality.

I second @johnebaker's suggestion re Neat Video; while as good, if not better noise reduction results can be achieved with AVISynth, it requires a huge amount of brain power. Neat Video is terrific and makes editing a pleasure because you can get on with being creative and productive instead of spending lots of time on noise reduction scripts.

@Can-Dive

I was not aware of this 4:3 vs 5:4 issue. Do you know if this problem exists across different video editors? For example, to your knowledge, does Vegas Pro have this issue?

I couldn't say. We do have a few Vegas users here though so they could try this file:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SQyHimA2AAgYKAL3oM06l7pA37YUeKo4/view?usp=sharing

(I've cropped this one to remove the bar side bars and headswitching noise).

If it isn't interpreted as 4:3 on import, I daresay the clip display aspect ratio could be set to 4:3.

 

@AAProds This is how it goes for me with your file, MMS24 vs Vegas Pro 21.

------------

I get the same jittery playback & black bars in VPX14

@Former user @Can-Dive @johnebaker

Gid, Interesting. A version of Frame Salad? I wouldn't have expected that on your machine.

You can see the black side bars in Magix where it is not expanding the image to the full 4:3 screen, even though it thinks it is 4:3 (the "Adjust" message).

Vegas is also displaying it as 5:4; to be expected. Can you change the video properties to 4:3?

Here's another, in MagicYUV codec. It should be smooth.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1smE3tXEsJKw0vKZKnR3m4OgNN89zJat5/view?usp=sharing

I think/assume Magix dropped the analogue AVI ball with the new SPR. Prior to that, they even had the program automatically apply the 4:3 aspect ratio to AVIs like these. Now that was clever. MEP 2021 will do that.

Re the frame salad, MEP 2021 does it too so I think that has been a lurking bug for a while. I didn't came across it until 2020 when I got back into analogue capturing; all my previous captures (~2010-2013) were with MXV.

@AAProds 

It comes in as 1.0000 (Square), You can change the Pixel aspect to 0.9091 (NTSC DV)so it looks like what MMS shows with the black bars.

I'll try your other vid in a bit, I use MagicYUV as a render option & have no prob in Vegas, I can't remember how they go in MMS so we'll see how your's goes.

A pic just to show the MagicYUV options.

------------------------

This is your second MagicYUV vid, it plays ok (as I thought it would), still has the black bars.

@Former user Try changing the Pixel Aspect to 1.3333. The video itself is 720x576 4:3. It's just not coded.

@AAProds ? I presume you're ref to Vegas as there's no option for that in MMS?

I thought how it looked at 1,000 was correct?

---------------

Just to add, here's the options for the project settings which can be set & the media made to match the project.

---------------------

Just going through a few options, (I don't know what shape/length that plane is meant to be 🤷‍♂️😕🤔🤣)

This the media untouched at 1,000 , the project changed & the media told to stretch to fit that setting, 1.3333 looked like the plane was too long, or maybe that's the size it should be, this is 1.2121 (NTSC DV Widescreen)

@johnebaker @AAProds

Hi,

I'm definitely not an expert on video capture as you will see.

I managed to make the capture device work, then not work... Right now, it's not working. I'm becoming an expert on plugging, unplugging...repeat, hoping that the device will show up instead of the Windows message that it doesn't work, or no message at all.

When it worked recently and I captured the pile of VHS cassettes, I used mxv, default, 4:3, 352x240, 29.97fps. Why, I have no idea. I didn't notice after the first recording. I should probably redo the captures at a higher resolution. The project is 720x480.

Looking at your image, Al, I got worried and thought that maybe my captures did not look as good as on the preview monitor on the recording screen. So, I tried going in and no luck, the capture device was in the not working mode. Couldn't get it to work yesterday or today.

On the batch that I managed to do recently, there were strange problems with the first captures from machine 1, so my aunt brought me her old integrated TV/VHS machine and I used that. After capturing everything, I went back to machine 1, and noticed that it was now working much better - must have been some dust or something - so I recorded everything a third time. Now I had 3 videos to work with. Machine 1 has stereo audio connections, red and white whereas the combo only has 1 out. Audio seemed better with Machine 1, and I had to put audio left channel only (simple right-click with VPX).

But, there were points where there was no audio on one recording but continuous on another. At the same location, both machines, the video would freeze. Then the audio would be way out of sync. But this was not consistent. And so on.

Most of these were 2nd generation cassettes on which the person who did the work added some music and titles in places. Bad titles, difficult to read and 1 to 2 minutes long, or more. Etc.

Some of the recordings were not very good, others were quite clear. I can only assume that that is the way they are on the recordings, not due to capture problems.

I used Neat Video on everything, different settings depending on the recording, or perhaps depending on the VHS cassette.

In the same project, I added in a clip from a VHS that I had digitized several years ago. The properties indicate 640x480, but on the screen, I have 720x480 and it looks fine. In SPR, I clicked on Original and the image went to 640x480 and looked squashed. So, 720 it is. Why I captured at 640x480, I have no idea.

How these formats work, I still have not figured out, and reading about this makes my old head hurt. I really would like to know which size I should use for capturing VHS, NTSC.

I just found a document from the Canadian Government on this (amazing some of the stuff that the government does that we don't know about). Now my head hurts more. Looking quickly at the document, I am way off.

So, maybe I should purchase a new capture device and a VHS head-cleaning tape (can't find the old ones).

Or, just keep going editing what I have.

A last word on capturing to mxv instead of something else for archival purposes. I figure that at the minimum, I should edit out bad stuff and do some video noise cleaning and audio noise reduction, compression and volume adjustments, then export to MP4 and keep that. The first generation capture will not be archived - no one will figure out what it all is after we are dead and gone. Given the nature of the material, family recordings, etc., turn the camera on and film the table legs amongst other stuff, two guys in a sailboat far from shore for 5 minutes..., my process is probably good enough.

Al, I will take another look at your website documents.

John CB

@AAProds @johnebaker

Hi,

I just remembered how I got the 352x240 resolution - it's the default for VHS Quality, but with 25fps. Without thinking much, I just changed to 29.97fps. Grrrr.

John CB

@browj2

For NTSC, standard capture is 720x480, 29.97, YUY2. I haven't tried NTSC, but you'll probably have the same issue: Magix won't interpret it as 4:3 (and you won't be able to change it in Video Properties) so you'll have to manually set it to 640 by 480 (ie 4:3) in SPR and then relink and change the size to do any cropping.

Why the standards people chose 720x480 and 720x576 for SD video, neither of which are 4:3, is a mystery to me.

I just found a document from the Canadian Government on this (amazing some of the stuff that the government does that we don't know about). Now my head hurts more. Looking quickly at the document, I am way off.

Wow! I hadn't seen that before. Somebody went to a LOT of effort to write that! Good stuff there. I did notice though that they don't suggest lossless AVI for capture, which is currently the suggested method, especially since most digitisers will only capture into DV or MPEG with their own software that is now becoming non-functional as Windows develops. The 710-USB is a good example; I had it working on an earlier version of Win 10 but now it will not capture analogue. This is a driver issue, probably the reason your digitiser is playing up. On the other hand, the GV-USB2 and Startech USB3HDCAP work great with Win11.

If you've got a Magix digitiser, it would be worth telling Support about it so they can update the driver.

@browj2, @AAProds

Hi John, Al

. . . . document from the Canadian Government  . . . .

An interesting article!

Yesterday while doing some testing using MMS 2024 and my USB 2820 capture device (old verging on ancient device) I came across an MPG DVD set of options for recording:

Have you ever seen these options before.

When I went back for further testing - theMPG DVD option is no longer available - I could only record in MXV format.

Do you have the MPG DVD option and its advanced options?

John EB

@johnebaker

When I went back for further testing - theMPG DVD option is no longer available - I could only record in MXV format.

Do you have the MPG DVD option and its advanced options?

John, I don't have the Magix dongle but with the GV-USB2 I have the full MPEG monty:

All settings via the cog are available, as are the MPEG options.

@AAProds

Hi Al

Thank you for checking, this is what I get now

BTW, does your VPX 12 have the option to record AVI as VPX 15 does.

John EB

@johnebaker

does your VPX 12 have the option to record AVI as VPX 15 does.

John, I can indeed! Very interesting!

I'm sure your missing MPEG option is a out of date driver for the dongle.

@AAProds

Hi

Al

. . . . I'm sure your missing MPEG option is a out of date driver for the dongle. . . .

Afraid not, however, I have tracked the issue thanks to your comment.

If you look at the last image I posted I have Audio set to No recording, whereas the previous images taken when the option was available show it is set to my sound card, this old dongle, not a Magix one, passes the audio through to the audio card Line In for recording - weird!!

As soon as I turn audio back on, the MPEG:DVD option re-appears in the dropdown 🙂🙃🙂🙃🙂

Who'd have thought a recording option would go walk about if you do not record the audio!

John EB