Magix has changed the name of MEP to Movie Studio. There is also a note on their website that Vegas Movie Studio is now using the guts of MEP. They are now supporting just one consumer product Movie Studio. I already have Movie Studio 2022 Platinum. The bug actually happened in the upgraded MEP to 2022, which is actually MS, but with a front page that says it is MEP.

Magix has never supported Lagarith very well in recent versions of MEP. Lagarith output is not correct and has the wrong frame rate which makes it not line up frame by frame for 23.976 nominal frame rate. Magix does not seem to support any lossless codecs except vie external added codecs. X265 lossless would be a nice enhancement. Is the Magix Video lossless? I do editing in multiple passes with using Photoshop CS6 for frame by frame editing, and VirtualDub for other editing chores.

The MS 2022 has a patch which does not fix the Lagarith problem. This is fairly typical that Magix support leaves out things when releasing a new version! They also take out things that used to work such as recognizing JPS as identical to JPG format. They just won't load it anymore. It is essentially a side-by-side 3D photo in JPG format that was a VREX standard.

Greetings @clement5 and @AAProds

I've used Lagarith ever since Al (@AAProds put me onto it a couple of years or so ago and I've never knowingly had a problem with it; not that this helps either of you obviously.

I have both 32-bit and 64-bit Lagarith on my system, could that be a reason (I don't know how to be honest)?

Have you tried Intel IYUV on your system? I find that on my 'pooter it encodes a lot faster than Lagarith but with the drawback that the files are double the size but considerably smaller that "Uncompressed movie".. Maybe MEP/MS will like that better. I use it a lot for small 10 minute or so AVI's for the speed.

Again this doesn't help your current situation but maybe you could try re-encoding the troublesome files in Vitrualdub (which I read you use) with Intel IYUV to see if you can salvage something of your massive project.

But then I may have got hold of the wrong end of the stick and be talking out of my terminal portion of the large intestine extending from the sigmoid colon. Apologies if I am.

AndyW

@clement5

Hi

. . . . Magix has changed the name of MEP to Movie Studio. . . . There is also a note on their website that Vegas Movie Studio is now using the guts of MEP. They are now supporting just one consumer product Movie Studio. I already have Movie Studio 2022 Platinum.  . . . .

Please note the difference in the names of the 2 products - Vegas Movie Studio (VMS) and Magix Movie Studio (MMS).

To clarify, Vegas Movie Studio no longer exists, all development by Vegas Creative Software on this product was stopped mid 2021.

Magix Movie Studio 18 was released as a rebranded version of Movie Edit Pro with limited capability of importing the old Vegas Movie Studio project files, rather then continue 2 lines of the same product Movie Edit Pro was rebranded Magix Movie Studio in Feb 2022.

If you had Movie Edit Pro 2022 the name will change when you upgrade to the latest version at the time you upgrade, until then you will see the old name. New purchasers will get the same product with the new name.

. . . . As MS does not offer a non-lossy output format other than uncompressed, my use of Lagarith is for being able to do multiple pass editing without any losses or added artifacts . . . .

Have you tried re-installing Lagarith? If not do so installing both the 32 and 64 bit versions as @me_again has commented.

. . . . multiple pass editing . . . .

Can you clarify on what you mean by this - ie what is your work flow and requirements that require multi pass editing?

John EB

Multiple pass editing consists of outputting existing edits to intermiedate files editing those in other programs and then putting them back into the original project. An example is that each scene of the movie has different configurations of objects, some of which are stationary because most scenes were shot with a stationary camera. To get rid of jitter I use DeShaker plugin in VirtualDub which can mask out moving details, unlike the current stabilizer in MS. Then Photoshop is used separately to edit frame by frame to be able to properly remove large spots and spots on moving objects. Also, a good program to remove spots is Neat, but it removes whole objects if they are fast moving, and they can be edited back. Photoshop has a good histogram correction for brightness that I can get better results quickly than using the standard brightness/contrast/gamma adjustments. Neither Photoshop nor MS do a good job of matching brightness/contrast automatically for different frames. Sometimes with fast moving objects I will just extract short clips and set Neat for no spot removal, but I have already removed spots by hand.

Often when looking at the scenes in an object I do not see defects until some cleaning has already been done, so another pass of exporting and editing is often necessary. I deal with old films where an individual frame may have momentary magnification in just one dimension, or stationary objects that jitter, and this may require some frame editing. To get the best results I need to keep the video lossless as much as possible so as to prevent cumulative errors. I suspect that commercial Pro software may be able to do all of this with one one product, but the price is astronomical. For example MS now can make fractional changes in frame position, but my old version of Photoshop only deals with integer movements so fine editing may require a back and forth. I refuse to upgrade to the subscription version.

I think I will wait a bit to see if Magix comes up with the patch. The version of MS I am using has the latest patch, and if I read the number correctly it is later than the one mentioned in Aaprods post. Re-encoding the files into a different codec will be very time consuming as the project now occupies 1/2 Tb with many files. They are all labeled by hand as to what frame of the movie they started with. Yes, I am obsessive about doing things, but by labeling carefully, I am able to reconstruct a project even when the MS information has been trashed. I wish MS would do the labeling for me.

@clement5

Hi

Thanks for the explanation of the process you are using - that sounds like a lot of concentrated hard work.

. . . . a good program to remove spots is Neat . . .

If you mean Neat Video the noise remover plug-in, I have the Pro version for 4K video support and use it for camera sensor noise reduction in low light and the occasional night shots (Infra-red).

John EB

V5 of Neat Video has a number of additional functions including intensity leveling. V4 as I recall introduced spot removal, but as I say it removes fast moving objects too often. In one frame of a pioneer lady chopping wood the Ax handle and all disappeared, so I had to put that frame back. SpotRemover is good at removing tiny spots, but both miss some of them. There is no perfect software noise removal algorithms. Yes it is hard work, and as I recall one of Ingemar Bergman's films was documeted as using a person monitoring the spot removal. But they had software that would locate spots and the human made the decision. As to noise removal, some of the old movies have horrendous noise, so removal makes them much more watchable, and one can see what the director intended, and what he didn't notice like bugs crawling up a beam!

I mainly do an occasional classic movie, and some my grandfather was in during his time in Hollywood in the 30s. I also do TV videos that I particularly like, but nothing for pay, and they are put on Archive.org or YouTube.

@me_again

Andy, I can't find separate 32 bit and 64 bit versions of Lagarith, only the 1.3.27 installer, which appears to install both at the same time. What was that about orofiy? 😃 I did have a play with G-Spot but it just showed "LAGS", no 32 or 64.

@clement5

I can confirm that, here at least, MEP 2022 (version 21.0.2.138) doesn't exhibit the flicking (which incidentally occurs with HUFFYUV as well).

Is the Magix Video lossless?

If you're referring to MXV, I don't know, The files are relatively large and it is very quick on the timeline, but as for being actually lossless, I couldn't say.

The suggestion was made to use iYUV for output. While it is lossless, it presents problems with frame rate. VirtualDub will produce the correct 24000/1001 rate, but MS produces 23976/1000 for my video. 23.976 is the nominal frame rate for an NTSC movie in progressive mode, which corresponds to the first rate exactly. In the process the resulting video produced by MS does not exactly line up.and is slightly different in length for a long video. MS does produce the correct frame rate for x264 or for uncompressed. For the original default iYUV it produces the correct rate unless another codec is selected using the advanced tab. iYUV files are of course larger than Lagarith, but smaller than uncompressed. I get about 4x Lagarith for the uncompressed, but iYUV is 3X larger than Lagarith for the B&W movie I am working on which is not very acceptable. Since I tested Lagarith output from MS, I will now have to do reset and restore to factory state to use iYUV. Essentially the AVI output is worthless if the codec is changed. There is probably no problem if the frame rate is integer such as 24, 25, 50, or 60. I have complained about this problem for years, to no avail.

@clement5

What is your program version number? You don't have it in your signature. The reason I ask is the problem may be an NTSC-only thing; I'm on PAL.

Check out MagicYUV. I'm using it and it works well.

Version number 21.0.2.138 (UDF3) As to MagicYUV, does it work for my version of Photoshop and VirtualDub? I must have compatability. The Photoshop output is essentially a lossless movie format which I can input into both of my other programs, but then can I get output from VD and MS that will work work with each other. Lagarith works for all.

@AAProds

Greetings Al, It could well be that the installer install both 32 & 64-bit version of Lagarith. I used the zip file, which is a portable version, from https://www.videohelp.com/download/Lagarith_1327.zip

It's easy enough to find out if both version are installed; just search for Lagarith.dll

What was that about orofiy?

It's 6:35 am here and I've only had one cup of tea. Orofiy? I'll have another cup or two, it may come to me.

AndyW

@clement5

MagicYUV certainly works with VD; that's the codec I use to capture analogue.

As for Photoshop, I don't know. There is a trial for MagicYUV.

@me_again

Thanks Andy, yes, I have the same. I think you're right, 32 and 64 are in the same installer.

@clement5, @AAProds

Hi

. . . . Is the Magix Video lossless? . . . .

This is unknown, however it is a custom video format and is not compatible with any other software outside of the Magix programs which support video.

. . . . MagicYUV certainly works with VD; that's the codec I use to capture analogue. As for Photoshop . . .

AFAIK if the codec is installed on the PC, then Photoshop will read it providing the file format is supported.

John EB

Of course JPEG's are not lossless unless encoded as lossless. I have more information about the problem. It will not be solved by any workarounds. I have a small test program that showed this misbehavior. After exporting the the test video as uncompressed, I also exported it as Lagarith. Lo and behold the problem went away. The uncompressed output shows the problem, but the Lagarith output does not. So I went back to my original very large project and the problem was back. Then going back to the test project, it also had the problem.

My diagnosis is that there is an ovarload in a cache file with probably some wrong pointers. I am running another test before contacting Magix again. Early symptoms involved an error message when the entire large project was exported, but by removing a couple of files this went away. I am running a full export now that will take a while.

I would love to have Magix finally fix the Lagarith export problem in MS. Actually it is a problem in the advanced menu because when it is used to change some parameters, it also changes the frame rate, which it should not do unless that is diddled in the menu. I didn't realize that iYUV was lossless and have been exporting in uncompressed from MS. My copy of photoshop can only export uncompressed as a .MOV and does not seem to handle any other lossless codecs. Yes, I am doing my restorations very cheaply, and suffering the problems with the software as a result.

@clement5

Hi

. . . .  Early symptoms involved an error message when the entire large project was exported, but by removing a couple of files this went away. . . . .

How long is the entire large project ?

. . . . Actually it is a problem in the advanced menu. . . . when it is used to change some parameters . . .

Which parameters are you changing?

John EB

The only parameter I change is the Codec. Before I go into the advanced menu the frame rate box reads 23.976, but afterwards it reads 23.98. I can change it back but that doesn't change the embedded metadata back to 24000/1001 as I can see in the output file.

The project has a length in time of 1 hr 45 minutes, but that is not the relevant parameter. The files occupy about 1/2 Tb but that figure includes some files that are not in the project. Practically all of the files in the project are in Lagarith format.

There is another development. After discovering how to make my test project work correctly I tried doing an export of the whole original large project, and lo it worked without giving an error. Then looking at a section of the project I still have some totally black frames, but they are correct in the export. MS is obviously a jungle with different code for export from that for display. As a third class wizard programmer I know full well how difficult legacy programs can be to maintain. (I am only 3rd class because I never got the first class spell books) I also only expore programs when I need a particular feature, and have found the Magix documentation to be very incomplete.

@clement5

Hi

. . . . I still have some totally black frames, but they are correct in the export.. . . .

Do they appear as black in the Preview monitor or just on the timeline as shown below?

If just on the timeline this is caused by a mismatch of the project setting to the framerate of the video, in the above example this video is 29.97 fps with the project set to 25 fps and has no effect on the preview or export.

. . . . the frame rate box reads 23.976, but afterwards it reads 23.98. I can change it back but that doesn't change the embedded metadata back to 24000/1001  . . . .

I assume embedded data being written to the file 23976/1000 as you previously commented - the only difference between the two is the denominator ie: 24000 ÷ 1001 = 23.976 (to 3 dec pl) the minor difference being ignored.

HTH

John EB

Some black frames I see while looking at the MS previews do not appear in the export. However recent extended viewing of the export reveals some black frames that should not be there. The export is in uncompressed format which I always use for intermediate files so it is 24000/1000 fps. The project is set to 23.976 and the other export options give the correct frame rates to x264 and uncompressed both work correctly. The problem with incorrect frame rate output is only in the AVI selection after selecting the codec using the advanced option. Of course I cannot tell if the preview is using the correct 24000/1000 or 23976/1000.

With a long video of about 2 hours the export of a Lagarith AVI at 23976/1000 does not match the original frame by frame. It is off by a number of frames at the end which is even curioser. The comparison was done by lining them up in MS. Since 93.976x60x60x2= 172,627.20 but (24000/1001)x60x60x2=172,627.37...So at most the difference at the end should be a small fraction of a frame. They are doing something grossly wrong with the arithmetic. Maybe this is because it is a German company in a PAL region!

Even if they are using 32 bit floating point numbers that truncates the precision to 6 decimal digits which should only result in at most 1 frame difference between the two lined up. Maybe I should do a detailed comparison frame by frame of the two lined up. Also, I didn't think of calculating the exact time of the final frame using the metadata that I have available. Comparisons are made difficult because VirtualDub gives the exact frame count along with fractonal frame time, but MS gives only the time to nearest second plus frame count within that second. Why can't the MS developers do this themselves and fine tooth comb the preview and the exports for the error. They could use 64bit floating point calculations throughout!

@clement5

Hi

. . . . at most the difference at the end should be a small fraction of a frame. . . . .They are doing something grossly wrong with the arithmetic. . . .

The problem here is the idea of fractional frames is a mathematical/theoretical 'anomaly', just as the average family having 2.4 children.

The maths in theory says one thing, there should be a partial frame at the end, in the real world video cannot have partial frames, just the same as movies on film do not have a partial frame.

John EB

Curioser and curioser! I just compared the export for MS in Lagarith codec with the original file. Both have exactly the same number of frames according to VirtualDub. But the time according to MS and VD are not the same. The Lagarith export is 1s shorter in time which means the original file is 26 frames longer when I line them up in MS. What is even stranger both claim to be 23.976 fps. That figure combined with the number of frames gives the correct answer for the timing of the of the original file claimed by MS and VD, but not for the exported file. What is even curioser the time claimed by VD matches the incorrect time given by MS. So there is something hidden that I can't get at for the frame rate. It seems that the frame rate used for the exported file is 23.98 even though the metadata says it is 23976/1000. Arrrrgh. The metadata reader doesn't quite give me the information to the same precision for the time as VD and MS so I can't do a full 3 way comparison. VD gives the number of frames, but MS does not.

As to the partial frame problem that is purely an artifact of the math. Of course, you cannot have a partial frame, but when dealing with floating point calculations a partial frame might be calculated. As to doing the comparisons I use the timing numbers to calculate the number of frames rather than other way around, so the result will be a number of frames plus a fraction. As a physicist and a computer wizard I understand how numbers work and the problems of computer computations.