@browj2

Hi John.

Actually I have watched your videos on audio. It's why I posted as I think some aspects are either broken or can be overloaded. I realized this is not an audio DAW and has it's own workflow.

Have you tried as many as 10 audio tracks with at least three different sound source files on at least seven of the tracks? This, as with a lot of things in Magix, is a progressive problem as objects are added over the time of producing a video. It starts off fine with no problems. Some sound files are less than two seconds but they seem fine.

I set all the volumes up first but on a subsequent opening of the project one track or more will suddenly go full volume for less than a quarter second. Normally around a crossover point between two clips. The volume jump is not on the audio track or the volume track curve or made by a slider adjustment. It was I think happening immediately after the crossover point between tracks. That was the hardest bit to get under control as other parts of the mix dictated other audio tracks had to have their clips changed at exactly the same point to keep the edits timed to the beat. So there may be as many as six video clips needing the same automation done at the same time.

In my image of the mixer, the first channel has to have the Auto button active for playback or is does not use any of the automation for that track. I tried deleting the track and placing the clips again to a new track but then the problem jumped to another track.

It could be just my system with the motherboard ram not being fast enough to deliver the information quick enough for real time playback as my project is all 4K @ 50fps. I realize I am pushing my system as the video of one minute is taking two hours ten minutes to render. None of my components though are either being maxed out or showing signs of overheating. In fact even during the past few days where my room temperature has been around 31℃, none of my computer components have registered a temperature of above 53℃. There has been sufficient amounts of ram,(37% usage) vram,(75% usage) CPU (27 to 47% usage) and GPU (17% usage) headroom and the drives are barely ticking over. (2% usage).

That I could accept as a glitch in playback but it transfers to the exported rendered video.

I am not using proxy files on the tracks as the project plays back on the timeline with pre-rendering sections to check alterations.

Also if I do use the Key frame editor, often when I re-open a project I can't then easily delete or add to that object as the key frame editing symbols disappear the same way they tended to in the size, position, rotation effect. That happened from the off and not as the project progressed.

I have finally made the video but had to lock each track when not editing the track I was working on and had to abandon the use of the key frame editor and instead adjust the clips individually in their track positions that at least kept their respective volumes on re-opening and allowed secondary control from the mixer panel.

I do understand why there are so many ways to set levels. Each clip in theory could have different volumes so need to be balanced against each other if on the same track or against relative levels of other tracks. Hiss and audio distortion for me at least are a thing of the long and distant past. I seldom need to 'clean up' my audio. What can't be cleaned is background ambient noise of crowds or PA systems at louder volumes than the audio trying to be captured, even using mics close to the subject. At least the lag between altering sliders on the mixer is now better than it used to be.

I have also read the manual from page 126 onward for relevant information. Using the 'reference audio' did not work satisfactory in this instance. Possibly due to the variation in material.

Ray.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray,

I have not had that many tracks with audio. I tried a test with 3 and have object and track level audio.

It would be helpful if you could demonstrate the problems one at time so that we can try to do the same thing.

I am not getting disappearing object audio kf's. Try turning on the object volume curve for one that seems to have this problem. I use the points on the timeline, not the kf's as I can see graphically what is happening. Can you show us an example of disappearing kf's?

I'm off for a tour to Tadoussac today so won't have any more time till tonight of tomorrow.

John CB

@browj2

Hi John.

As I said, it could be component related and even if you did the same thing it may take much more to get your system to an overload point. (Which is what I think is happening somewhere in the chain.) The project is handling 16GB of data spread across 142 files in that one minute of project length.

The problem may be component specific vs amount of data handling rather than program specific.

I transferred the whole project including the files to a new folder. Most of the problems apart from a micro jump in volume ten seconds in just after an audio crossover point has gone if I open the project from the new location even though it is residing on the same drive as the original file locations. That is including the misbehaving audio volume slider needing to have 'Auto' enabled. I still can't cure the micro jump in volume as there is nothing to adjust at that point.

The troubling audio section is on track 2 highlighted in yellow just after that clip and just after the audio crossover point but before the pan to the left.

Track 3 uses the same audio but pans to the right and the audio is two frames behind track 2. That creates a centre 'hole' for any dialogue to push through.

The audio is the same set of files used on track 3 but gets panned to the right at exactly the same time.

Track one is empty. I needed to try placing the audio on another track as track one was 'remembering' automation adjustments and I could find no way of deleting the automation. Nothing worked.

In the new project folder track one has been deleted.

Playback is slightly glitchy in places but normally that does not happen to the rendered exports.

Ray.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray,

Not sure what I should be hearing around the 10s point, but I don't hear any big spike. Being deaf in one ear, I listened to each channel separately.

There is a very audible glitch at the 43-45s point.

When you right-click in the blank area of a track, you can reset the track curves - volume or pan. Does this not work?

John CB

@browj2

Hi John.

The 'glitch' is due to you looking at the playback I get from playing the project within MEP. It is not the final render.

I was showing how the program was responding rather than showing the finished file which is a bit large and won't load directly to the forum.

(The mixer is not really that size in the project window but reduced to fit and not obscure the timeline)

This is a lower resolution copy but the audio volume jump ten seconds in to the left should be easier to hear.

One thought that I had is it may be caused by repeating the same audio files milliseconds apart from each other. Initially though it was working. I am also very critical of everything I do so it may be because I know how it should sound that I notice.

Ray.

Hi Ray

I like John CB am not sure what we should be hearing at 10 secs in.

Have you tried increasing your audio buffers to give the audio more headroom?

John EB

@browj2 @johnebaker

Hi guys.

Embarrassment time all round for me now. 😳😳😳

I always take others comments seriously so I took a sample from the area at 10 seconds to look at the wav file in detail. The section I'm referring to is the top waveform in the highlighted area.

Then it dawned on me. Identical wave forms but panned left and right and taking into account they are slightly out of step to each other.

What I am hearing is not a change of volume but the snare drum, which in the stereo track is mixed to the right while the left channel has the high hat on the left. So a higher frequency, not as noticeable compared to the lower frequencies coming from the left side. It just happens to pan rapidly to the left as it is struck.

So no actual volume change caused by the program glitching. For me at least, just an annoying coincidence for my ears.

Moving all the files to one folder has also for whatever reason seemed to have solved odd disappearing automation problems. The original project folder did not contain any source material. I was trying to see if I could save drive space. Apparently not.

If nothing else I have learned not to make another topic on the forum until I have explored all possibilities as like most of the other topics here it was down to user error.

😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳

Ray.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray

Now we know why John CB and I could not hear it - I am also deaf in one ear and I use Equalizer-APO and Peace to blend the stereo to mono - far better quality sound then putting the computer into mono in Windows.

John EB

@CubeAce

Hi Ray,

If nothing else I have learned not to make another topic on the forum until I have explored all possibilities as like most of the other topics here it was down to user error.

You had a problem and asked for help. We looked at it and you found the problem and the solution. Others will have seen things that they did not even know was possible. It was a good exercise that worked out well, in my opinion.

Tomorrow morning, I will try to post the strange thing that I encountered with the track automation.

We had a beautiful day in Tadoussac.

John CB

@johnebaker @browj2

Thank you both for being understanding.

Sometimes I can get caught up in a problem and only see certain solutions. Working on audio within MEP and VPX is not always straightforward for me. I am a very visual person and I like looking at the timeline of the individual tracks to 'see' what should be going on with the audio. I get a lot of information out of the various markings and positions of the lines that are produced within the tracks. When my ears don't seem to verify what I see I get frustrated over the discrepancies until what I 'see' matches what I'm hearing.

MEP (MMS) and VPX has improved a lot audio wise, specifically with the time lag difference that used to be associated with using the mixer. I like looking at the mixer as I am used to using 'real' as opposed to virtual mixers. I still have two real mixers in my system for importing outside audio sources into my computer.

John CB.

There was definitely something going on with one channel of the mixer but moving the project seems to have cleared up my instance of it. I look forward to hearing about your findings. I'm glad you had a good day out. It looks a tranquil and beautiful place.

John EB and John CB.

I do still have some little niggles with the Timeline editing of audio.

As you both probably know, using the sliders or rotary pan control while recording mixer control movement can produce a lot of control 'node points' on the timeline. Sometimes they are far from smooth in their progression. I think this is why using the audio key editor itself gives better results but it does not result in mixer control movement of the sliders. Which for me is not an ideal way to track what is going on visually.

What I would dearly love is a node eraser tool for the timeline unless there is one I have overlooked. That way I could erase nodes between the actions and still see control movement in the mixer. I have such a tool in my DAW and find it really useful.

Also, sometimes trying to move a node on the timeline seems to create new ones. I don't know if that is actually happening or I have moved one very close node recorded over the top of a very close neighbouring node. Sometimes there are a lot of nodes close together. Being able to erase them would be good for making smoother and more precise movements.

We were hoping for thunderstorms overnight, or at least a lot of rain. We got neither. It is still dry as bones here although the temperature has dropped about 4℃. No significant rain forecast for my area now for at least a week.

Thank you both for your honest replies. They helped enormously.

Ray.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray

. . . . sometimes there are a lot of nodes close together. Being able to erase them would be good  . . .

Did you try the click/select node and Del key method?

Going back to my previous Signature in the forum - 'Lateral thinking can get things done'

Can your Cubase import EDL files ?

If it can, a possible solution for your audio dilemma is, using VPX and after getting the video timings correct, to export the project audio as an EDL list and import this into Cubase, get all the levels as your require and export this as a WAV file and bring this back into the project as a single audio track.

You would of course have to get all the video clip audio into seperate files.

HTH

John EB

@johnebaker

Hi John.

Did you try the click/select node and Del key method?

Do you mean in the key frame editor? Yes, there it is possible but I can't seem to be able to do that for the mixer produced nodes which are separate controlling nodes.

That did make me look again at the whole system of automation. I found I was wrong about one thing.

The Key Frame editor nodes are represented on the timeline. They just get buried away and hardly noticeable if you use mixer automation as well.

Can your Cubase import EDL files ?

Sadly that was introduced later than my version. There are workarounds I can use but it is a lengthy process when dealing with that many audio tracks. I have to import each audio tack at its complete length. At least until it is used in the project. Then they all sync time-wise. I can even import a low res mpeg video file similar to the old VGA standard resolutions so I can see when I need to make alterations but as I say, it takes up a lot of time.

If I need additional effects plugins I don't in have Magix I will bother, otherwise I tend not to try to produce additional audio files.

Ray

@CubeAce

Hi Ray,

Some narration would have helped understand what you are showing. What I see is that you are modifying an object volume curve then pointing to the mixer that does nothing. They are separate. The mixer does not change the object volume curve as it changes the volume of track and the object volume does not affect the mixer slider - they are independent. The mixer slider will only move up and down if you have a track curve and the track curve is showing.

TRACK CURVES

There are object curves and track curves.

You have the track curves turned off except when you click on A in the Mixer. Turn on track curves if you want to see and hear what happens. This is by right-clicking in a blank area of a track or on an object, and selecting Display Track Curves. Or, click somewhere on a track, even an object and use the shortcut Alt+K. You will see the following, even with Automation not activated in the mixer:

In the above, the automation is already done. Track curves have to be on for the effect to work. Turn on the A only if you want to create or modify the curve during playback. Otherwise, leave A off but keep the track curves displayed. Unfortunately, turning A off turns off the track curve and you have to turn the curve on.

As I said previously, get the object right and the Mixer automation should be minimal.

I have not found a way to delete points on the automation curve. I can select a point and move it (the thumb of the mouse must be over the point). Otherwise, do the automation again to change the points quickly.

OBJECT CURVES

The object volume curve and points and the Effects, Audio, General, Volume slider and keyframe points are all the same. I adjust the points on the curve, as it's visual, as you say, However, to delete a point on the object volume curve, this can only be done by selecting the point and clicking on it in the keyframe area and then using the Del key or the garbage can in the kf toolbar.

To quickly create and modify points, use the draw Curve mode (shortcut 9 top row of keyboard) from the timeline toolbar.

ANOMALY WITH TRACK CURVES TURNED OFF

Here is a video of the strange occurence with track curves existing but turned off and clicking in various locations and just moving the mouse around:

I don't know what's happening here, but I don't think that the points/curves should show up even temporarily.

John CB

@browj2

Hi John.

I have not found a way to delete points on the automation curve. I can select a point and move it (the thumb of the mouse must be over the point). Otherwise, do the automation again to change the points quickly.

That is my main niggle with the editing process. A tool to delete nodes on the timeline would be nice to have. Glad to see I didn't miss something though.

The drawing mouse mode affects the Audio Key Frame Editor within a clip on a track on the timeline but outside, either side of an audio clip (object) it alters the mixer volume. What????

The video was just to show that edits made in the key frame editor made no impact on the mixer even though they show on the timeline. I hadn't noticed that they showed on the timeline as I mentioned in my last post, and that while scrolling the timeline the mixer does not respond to the automation. It only responds in playback.

Yes, those editing points show up as you demonstrate. Even if you delete all audio objects on a track, the mixer automation remains and will be applied to whatever you replace the objects with audio wise unless you use the reset track curves command which resets the whole track except for any alterations made by the curve drawing tool within where an object was. They remain. Only deleting the track removes them as far as I can tell. That behaviour has been around for as long as I remember.

Ray.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray,

The drawing mouse mode affects the Audio Key Frame Editor within a clip on a track on the timeline but outside, either side of an audio clip (object) it alters the mixer volume. What????

That doesn't happen for me. Nothing on the track on either side of an object, Curve does nothing. If there is an adjacent audio object, then it will affect that object, but not the track curve.

Can you demonstrate this?

...and that while scrolling the timeline the mixer does not respond to the automation. It only responds in playback.

Yes, that is correct. It would be nice to see the sliders move if (audio) scrubbing is turned on.

Even if you delete all audio objects on a track, the mixer automation remains and will be applied to whatever you replace the objects with audio wise unless you use the reset track curves command which resets the whole track except for any alterations made by the mixer controls. They remain. Only deleting the track removes them as far as I can tell.

No, you are misunderstanding most of this.

Track curves are for the tracks, not the objects. If you move or delete an object, the track curve stays as it was - it's a track curve, not an object curve. Track curve points don't follow the object.

As I told you before, to remove the points on the track curve, right-click on an object or on the track and select "Reset Track Curves," then "Volume" or "Balance." The points will be removed and the line will be straight. You are resetting the Track Curve, not the Object curve.

To reset the Object Volume curve, with the object selected, go to Audio Effects, General and either click the reset button at the top right, which will reset everything, or to just remove one object effect curve, go to the keyframe area and click on the pop-down beside the effect (Volume) and select Delete Effects.

Overall, as I mentioned, get the objects correct first. This means everything in the editing. Follow the correct work flow. When you mix, you should no longer be moving objects around. When you Master, Mixing should have been done and only some tweaking required.

OTHER POINTS

I noticed clipping at some locations, the background sound is very annoying, and the overall sound seems to be too loud.

I strongly suggest that you use YouLean Loudness Meter to locate clipped points (anything over -1 db) and to see what the loudness is over time, and the overall perceived loudness in LUFS. It should not be louder than -14 LUFS for uploading to YouTube. I aim for -14 to -18.

To reduce the background din, use the Noise Reduction tool in MEP. Create a noise profile where the guy isn't talking apply it (save it for the future or other clips) and reduce the gain by 6 db, 7 max. Any more than that will cause artifacts or funny sound when the guy speaks. The background noise will be reduced. You can reduce the background noise even more by using the object volume curve and raising and lowering the volume on each side of where someone speaks.

Also, use ducking to reduce the music when the guy speaks.

John CB

@CubeAce

Further to the above, you should watch this video to see how to use YouLean Loudness Meter 2. I have the free version and put in in Track FX and Master FX. I get the tracks right, then check overall after mixing.

John CB

@browj2

It will take time for me to respond to all your comments and questions. I will try in the morning.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray

. . . . Do you mean in the key frame editor? . . . .

I meant on the automation curve itself, here is a quick and dirty demo - when you see a node vanish that is using the Del key.

An eraser like tool would be useful to wave over the nodes and remove them.

John EB

@johnebaker

That's neat John and going into my notebook. 👍

Thank you.

Ray.

@johnebaker

Hi John EB,

I meant on the automation curve itself, here is a quick and dirty demo - when you see a node vanish that is using the Del key.

That works in VPX but not in MEP2022 for an Object Automation curve, not a track curve. This must be a feature of VPX. In MEP, select the audio object, select a point on the volume curve and press on Del and the object is deleted.

There are other difference between VPX and MEP.

TRACK CURVES VPX vs MEP

In VPX, mouse over and click on a node. You will probably see a + that will quickly change to a value that seems to be quite different from what the Mixer slider (Automation) shows. The node may show -76db but the Mixer slider shows -5.1. I don't know how that works.

In MEP, there is no value shown when mousing over the nodes.

In both programs, there is no way that I can find to remove node from a Track Volume Curve.

John CB

@browj2, @CubeAce

Hi John, Ray

. . . . That works in VPX but not in MEP2022 for an Object Automation curve . . . .

Also works in MEP 2015 - 2022.

. . . . In both programs, there is no way that I can find to remove node from a Track Volume Curve. . . . .

Another one for the notebook - found it:

With the left mouse button, click and hold on a node and press Del - works in MEP 2015 - 2022 and VPX

HTH

John EB

@johnebaker

Hi John EB,

Also works in MEP 2015 - 2022.

Did you mean MEP 2015 - 2021?

I checked MEP2021 and was able to delete nodes from an Object Volume Curve on the timeline. It doesn't work for me in MEP2022.

With the left mouse button, click and hold on a node and press Del

Brilliant! Not we just have to remember this. I've added it to OneNote.

John CB