movie of stage show but on stage LCD screens cause movie flicker

spuddy13 wrote on 2/29/2024, 2:10 PM

movie studio 2023

movie of stage show but on stage LCD screens cause movie flicker on playback

i filmed a stage show but they used LCD for the backgrounds

now when we watch the video the screens have the bars scrolling so movie unwatchable

is there anything within the software that could cancel or correct this annoyance

thanks folks hope you can help

 

Brian

 

Comments

CubeAce wrote on 2/29/2024, 4:24 PM

Hi Brian.

This is mainly an in camera problem where the frame rate is not the same or a division or multiple of the frequency controlling the lighting. In mixed lighting conditions sometimes this is unavoidable.

My cameras have anti flicker settings but can only be set to either 50 or 60Hz.

Once you have a problem like this there is no guaranteed method I know of that can entirely eliminate the problem.

You can try the following and it may need either fine tuning or may not work.

First hopefully all the footage is on one or the first two tracks of the timeline. 🤞 If the footage isn't on one or the first two tracks then the same trick will be relevant but it will be up to you to sort out the additional problems.

First First copy and paste the whole track/s and contents to another track/s (It's better if the sound and video are on separate tracks)

Then enlarge the time on the timeline and pull one set of objects on the pasted track back by one frame.

Mute the sound track of that selection.

Then using the Chroma key tool on the lower track try to blend the two tracks together. I would start by trying the Mix option and blend around the 50% mark. If that doesn't work then try Stamp at 100% blend and back it off. Then if those don't work try either the black or white options. Adjust sliders to best effect.

A still will look blurred but the video motion should not.

Sorry I don't have any appropriate footage to show the desired result.

What should happen is you will get a slightly blurrier video but with less flicker. When I say blurry I mean more akin to motion blur and not much of it. Ideally there should be a blend mode in the program with choices similar to those you get in photo editing programs rather than having to resort to using Chroma key but sometimes you have to try to work with what you have.

The idea being is while some frames are dimming the blended layer will not be and as the brighter the frames get the corresponding ones get darker and hopefully even them out.

It works better with blended layers but the Chroma Key effect may work. The other blend modes I haven't highlighted in the image above will not work.

Good luck.

Ray.

[Edit]

I should add. If the stage had mixed lighting, any type of incandescent lighting along with the LCD problem this may produce other problems instead.

Last changed by CubeAce on 2/29/2024, 4:30 PM, changed a total of 4 times.

 

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spuddy13 wrote on 2/29/2024, 5:13 PM

Ray,

I think i will not get involved

a friend was asked to take stills of an amateur production in a theatre

his photos are excellent

but then they asked for video

this is not his area

he took the footage and its great till he pans round and the rear of the stage is a large lcd screen then it produces the power bars of the lcd

the guy did not get payed for his work it was a favor

i think to try and help him with the video would be a bit of a chore so on this occasion will just step back

your knowledge is amazing

i may now experiment with chroma key to get to grips with it

 

Thanks Ray

spuddy13 wrote on 2/29/2024, 5:29 PM

we are 50hz mains in uk

CubeAce wrote on 2/29/2024, 5:50 PM

@spuddy13

Hi Brian.

Large LCD screens were the bane of my my life when taking images for sports or event organisers. Quite often they are used to relay the event or give scores and are nearly always in view somewhere within a frame. It's a lot easier correcting stills than video when this type of thing goes wrong and nearly always easier to get right in camera than in post. LED stage lighting is another one depending on the dimming method. It's an easy mistake to make and we have all done it at some point. I can't say I blame you but sometimes it's fun to try.

[Edit]

Yes but the screens are often 60 Hz (If they are not large TVs) then you can't win easily.

Ray.

Last changed by CubeAce on 2/29/2024, 5:55 PM, changed a total of 2 times.

 

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Direct X 12.1 latest hardware updates for Western Digital hard drives.

Asus ROG STRIX Z390-F Gaming motherboard Rev 1.xx with Supreme FX inboard audio using the S1220A code. Driver No 6.0.8960.1 Bios version 1401

Intel i9900K Coffee Lake 3.6 to 5.1GHz CPU with Intel UHD 630 Graphics .Driver version Graphics Driver 31.0.101.2130 for 7th-10th Gen Intel® with 64GB of 3200MHz Corsair DDR4 ram.

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M Audio Axiom AIR Mini MIDI keyboard Ver 5.10.0.3507

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spuddy13 wrote on 2/29/2024, 6:13 PM

fab pics, great quality

me_again wrote on 3/1/2024, 4:48 AM

@spuddy13 @CubeAce

I've posted here in the past about LCD lighting being a pain and I've used the technique Ray has suggested but in a slightly different way:-

I use 3 tracks of the video on tracks 1, 2 and 3 each 1 frame advanced (i ungroup tracks 2 and 3 and remove the audio) - track 3 in the original place, track 2 advanced 1 frame and track 1 advanced one frame further.

Then reduce the transparency of track 2 and 3 to around 50%

This will darken the final video so it's a good idea to increase the Gamma in track 1.

There is motion blurring as Ray said there would be but it's not too bad and the end result is a lot better than the original (please note my videoing prowess 😏)

Original

With the above technique

But of course the real answer is to use Neat Video - well worth the money in every respect.

AndyW

 

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johnebaker wrote on 3/1/2024, 5:42 AM

@spuddy13

Hi

+1 for Neat Video

John EB
Forum Moderator

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CubeAce wrote on 3/1/2024, 5:59 AM

@me_again

Hi Andy.

The use of Chroma Key is a fudge for MMS and VPX. Ideally you need a video editor that allows different blending modes on the overlaying track. Then Multiply or Overlay can work much better. Three overlapping tracks produces too much motion blur to be comfortable to view for me but that is very subjective and personal to the viewer.

Ray.

 

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1 x 250GB Evo 970 NVMe: drive for C: drive backup 1 x 1TB Sabrent NVMe drive for Operating System / Programs only. 1X WD BLACK 1TB internal SATA 7,200rpm hard drives.1 for internal projects, 1 for Library clips/sounds/music/stills./backup of working projects. 1x500GB SSD current project only drive, 2x WD RED 2TB drives for latest footage storage. Total 21TB of 8 external WD drives for backup.

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Running MMS 2024 Suite v 23.0.1.182 (UDP3) and VPX 14 - v20.0.3.180 (UDP3)

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me_again wrote on 3/1/2024, 9:32 AM

@CubeAce Agreed but it's free and it is an improvment whether two tracks or three.

@spuddy13

Just been playing and I've come across something I don't understand. It works to a degree in that it's an improvement in reducing flicker/scrolling and it only seems to work if the original video is interlaced.

If your file it is interlaced, right click on the video in the timeline and select properties. Open the video tab and under "Intermediate Images" change it to "Full Frame (non-interlaced)"

I'd be interested if others can try it and see a slight(ish) improvement or if it's just my imagination.

AndyW

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johnebaker wrote on 3/1/2024, 9:42 AM

@spuddy13, @CubeAce, @me_again

Hi

. . . . I think i will not get involved . . . .

I am of the same mind if the strobing is bad enough that Neat Video cannot fix it. Neat Video can do a very good job, however it is not a 'cure all'.

There is another related issue that is rarely discussed, and should be taken in to account when presenting video having this strobing issue and that is the viewing audience, in particular anyone who suffers from Photosensitive epilepsy.

Any viewer who suffers from PE may be affected by the flickering/strobing in the video, AndyW's original clip above is a good example of strobing.

. . . . screens are often 60 Hz .... then you can't win easily . . . .

Very true unless the camera shutter is locked to the screen refresh clock, see this blog, which is one of many on this issue, for ways to minimse this issue.

John EB

VPX 16, Movie Studio 2025, and earlier versions 2015 and 2016, Music Maker Premium 2024.

PC - running Windows 11 23H2 Professional on Intel i7-8700K 3.2 GHz, 16GB RAM, RTX 2060 6GB 192-bit GDDR6, 1 x 1Tb Sabrent NVME SSD (OS and programs), 2 x 4TB (Data) internal HDD + 1TB internal SSD (Work disc), + 6 ext backup HDDs.

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spuddy13 wrote on 3/1/2024, 10:42 AM

this has been interesting topic

great discussion

i think if it was my own footage i would take it further

but i don't possess the footage its a friends

i wanted to help but on this occasion i remain silent

 

thanks folks

the knowledge in this forum is amazing

 

B

CubeAce wrote on 3/1/2024, 12:26 PM

@johnebaker @me_again @spuddy13

Hi John.

In the instance of my comment on the refresh rate of a screen of LED bulbs on a dimmer, sometimes, depending on the type of dimmer and when mixed with an incandescent light source of a different fixed frequency, then often, one of the two of them will cause flickering to a greater or lesser degree. That is what I meant by a situation you can't win easily. I have found with some modern power LED stage lighting that video will go in and out of strobing as various coloured spot lights go up and down in in strength and frequency. Often on opposing sides of an artists body on a stage. One place that has this really under control is Harry Potters world. Their lighting system is on another level and very camera (video or still) friendly. Then again, a place that is primarily a film studio should get that correct. I'm hoping over time and such tech gets better, cheaper and more widely available as frequencies of such lighting and screens rise, that eventually all of these problems will be a thing of the past.

Looking at the latest DJI camera sensors and processing techniques, noise in low light is already almost a thing of the past.

Ray.

Last changed by CubeAce on 3/1/2024, 12:27 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

 

Windows 10 Enterprise. Version 22H2 OS build 19045.5011

Direct X 12.1 latest hardware updates for Western Digital hard drives.

Asus ROG STRIX Z390-F Gaming motherboard Rev 1.xx with Supreme FX inboard audio using the S1220A code. Driver No 6.0.8960.1 Bios version 1401

Intel i9900K Coffee Lake 3.6 to 5.1GHz CPU with Intel UHD 630 Graphics .Driver version Graphics Driver 31.0.101.2130 for 7th-10th Gen Intel® with 64GB of 3200MHz Corsair DDR4 ram.

1000 watt EVGA modular power supply.

1 x 250GB Evo 970 NVMe: drive for C: drive backup 1 x 1TB Sabrent NVMe drive for Operating System / Programs only. 1X WD BLACK 1TB internal SATA 7,200rpm hard drives.1 for internal projects, 1 for Library clips/sounds/music/stills./backup of working projects. 1x500GB SSD current project only drive, 2x WD RED 2TB drives for latest footage storage. Total 21TB of 8 external WD drives for backup.

ASUS NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060 12GB. nVidia Studio driver version 560.81 - 3584xCUDA cores Direct X 12.1. Memory interface 192bit Memory bandwidth 360.05GB/s 12GB of dedicated GDDR6 video memory, shared system memory 16307MB PCi Express x8 Gen3. Two Samsung 27" LED SA350 monitors with 5000000:1 contrast ratios at 60Hz.

Running MMS 2024 Suite v 23.0.1.182 (UDP3) and VPX 14 - v20.0.3.180 (UDP3)

M Audio Axiom AIR Mini MIDI keyboard Ver 5.10.0.3507

VXP 14, MMS 2024 Suite, Vegas Studio 16, Vegas Pro 18, Cubase 4. CS6, NX Studio, Mixcraft 9 Recording Studio. Mixcraft Pro 10 Studio.

Audio System 5 x matched bi-wired 150 watt Tannoy Reveal speakers plus one Tannoy 15" 250 watt sub with 5.1 class A amplifier. Tuned to room with Tannoy audio application.

Ram Acoustic Studio speakers amplified by NAD amplifier.

Rogers LS7 speakers run from Cambridge Audio P50 amplifier

Schrodinger's Backup. "The condition of any backup is unknown until a restore is attempted."

johnebaker wrote on 3/1/2024, 1:04 PM

Hi Ray

. . . . of a screen of LED bulbs on a dimmer, sometimes, depending on the type of dimmer and when mixed with an incandescent light source of a different fixed frequency, then often, one of the two of them will cause flickering to a greater or lesser degree. . . .

I was referring to Brian's issue which is LCD Screens.

With dimmer controlled domestic and non-video stage LED lamps the situation is worst with those that are driven at the mains frequency

LED lights for video use are different and do not 'flicker' when dimmed, they are usually driven at high frequency, eg 10 kHz - 20 kHz or more.

. . . . the latest DJI camera sensors and processing techniques, noise in low light is already almost a thing of the past. . . . .

They do appear to have cracked that one. I have been looking at the Action 4, it is impressive, not upgrading, yet, I am quite happy with the Action 3.

John

VPX 16, Movie Studio 2025, and earlier versions 2015 and 2016, Music Maker Premium 2024.

PC - running Windows 11 23H2 Professional on Intel i7-8700K 3.2 GHz, 16GB RAM, RTX 2060 6GB 192-bit GDDR6, 1 x 1Tb Sabrent NVME SSD (OS and programs), 2 x 4TB (Data) internal HDD + 1TB internal SSD (Work disc), + 6 ext backup HDDs.

Laptop - Lenovo Legion 5i Phantom - running Windows 11 23H2 on Intel Core i7-10750H, 16GB DDR4-SDRAM, 512GB SSD, 43.9 cm screen Full HD 1920 x 1080, Intel UHD 630 iGPU and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060 (6GB GDDR6)

Sony FDR-AX53e Video camera, DJI Osmo Action 3 and Sony HDR-AS30V Sports cams.