@Richard-Curtis

Hi

. . . . Am I the only user actually inconvenienced by this bug . . . .

You must be one of the few who actually use takes. I do not use them preferring to do a real export.

This suits my project organisation where every project is totally independent ie all the resources are available in the individual projects folder, this makes backing up and archiving/recalling where necessary, simpler.

John EB

@Richard-Curtis

Hi,

Looking back at your other post about takes and given the problem, I suggest that you change your workflow. I don't use takes, but I do split up long video recordings with multiple subjects like you do. Instead of takes, I do the following:

1. Import main video(s) onto timeline of 1 movie
2. Put cuts at scene changes
3. Add movies for each subject, renaming the movie to suit
4. Cut the clips pertaining to each movie and paste them into the relevant movie
5. When all clips are done, save the project and then export each movie
6. Open one of the movies and edit - everything is there.

Alternatively, if I want to keep the original intact with the splits, I assign a colour to a subject and apply it to the clips of that subject. Then I copy/paste those clips to the relevant movie. Then I assign a different colour to the next set of clips, copy/paste to their relevant movie. When all clips have a colour, I'm done. I save the project and then export the movies.

This way, I don't have a lot of takes filling up my HD's, all with the same name plus 000x. I don't have to rename the takes to know which theme they belong to.

John CB

@browj2

(Not sure how that address line is going to work out...)

Hi John

Very many thanks for taking the trouble to share your system with me.  If I understand you correctly, you fit two or more original movies onto different tracks, then cut them up and assemble them into one or more new movies - located either on one track or multiple tracks in the same project.  I think that makes a lot of sense if your original movies are fairly lengthy, but I've got about 150 3-minute cine films, any number of which can contain the clips that I need for a given movie or movies.

So (please bear with me!) I first sync video from my film scanner with audio from my sound film editor while also adjusting the video speed to 18 frames/sec (Super 8). Then I combine audio and video and cut the 3-minute film into takes.  I keep track of the takes on a spreadsheet, and as you mention every TK2 file is prefixed by its parent original movie - in my case numerically - hence any given take is easy to locate even among hundreds of other takes.  Each TK2 file is only 100-300kB, compared to several tens or even hundreds of MB for MP4 clips of the same length.  Then I push the takes that I need for a new movie into a new project, where I stabilise most of them and apply Neat Video (vital for Super 8 shots!) to some of them - not necessarily in that order.  After that comes the MP4 conversion. 

When I (eventually) get started on all my video tapes as opposed to cine films I think I may well follow your route.  I'm a beginner in this arcane field and am still very much feeling my way, so I really do appreciate the help you've given me. 

Thanks again

Richard

@johnebaker

Thank you for your response, John.  As I mentioned in response to JohnCB (below) I may well change my methods when I get around to editing my videos, as opposed to cine films.  The concept of keeping everything relating to a final project in one place is, I confess, appealing.

Richard

@Richard-Curtis

Whew! I knew that I had written down my process for 8/Super 8 Sound films but couldn't find it. Found it, but I didn't cover everything, so here is my detailed work flow.

1. Getting similar subject material into a movie - 8mm only or S8 with no sound

I made a spreadsheet of the reels showing a description of the contents, sometimes more than one subject. With this, I was able to select the reels (3 min. videos) by subject and bring them onto the timeline in a project, usually in order (if noted on my spreadsheet). Since some reels covered more than 1 subject, I created an additional movie or movies and then simply cut and pasted my way through, moving the cut up material to the relevant movie. This, of course, does not usually cover all of the material for the secondary movie, but at least I have it started.

Export the movie(s) so that I can open them as their own projects (actually import the movie into a project).

Get the first project done and delete (or not) the additional movie(s).

Cross those reels (video files) off of the list.

Keep a register of the projects/movies

Onto the next project, which could be one of the previously started movies. If so, open the movie into the project on the main timeline. Add in any additional content and use the same procedure if there is content that belongs to another subject/movie.

Once a movie (MVD file) has been transformed into an MVP file, you can delete the MVD file or move it to a backup folder. Cross off the movie (MVD) file from the list and add the MVP file.

Etc.

This way, you'll have all of the projects roughed out with all available material. No takes.

As for stabilization and Neat Video, these usually have to be done by scene. However, I do often copy the NV effect from one similar clip to another. It's debatable as to whether or not to do colour adjustment at this time. Then export to mxv/import mxv for further editing.

Using the mxv file as input, you can start editing the final version, adding photos, narrations, music, titles, transitions, effects, etc.

2. Getting similar subject material into a movie - S8 Sound

Similar process, but first you have to import the sound and synchronize it, group it with the video, and then start cutting things up. Thus, when you trim/copy/paste, you are doing both the video and audio at the same time.

In my case, I digitized the S8 Sound film using a Wolverine (no audio), then ran the film through the projector into a telecine converter, recording the video and audio onto the camera. At the same time, I plugged the audio out of the projector into the computer audio in and recorded it using Magix Audio & Cleaning Lab. This last file has clean audio, of course, no sound from the projector motor. Then I imported the 3 files into MEP/VPX, one below the other and synchronized the camera recorded audio with the AML audio file and grouped them. Then I synchronized the two videos by using the images. Sometimes, the camera recorded video would go out of synch with the digitized video, so this added some complexity as I would then have to do some stretching - video and audio.

Then I would ungroup everything, delete the camera recorded AV, regroup the good audio with the digitized video, and work from there.

3. Option - doing batches of somewhat simlar reels - say, by year

I have done 20 - 50 reels of reasonably similar material, creating a dozen or more movies, and then worked from these. This has advantages and disadvantages. Too many movies open seems to take longer to save (backups every 10 minutes), and the number of tabs can become overwhelming.

Bottom line, reel and project management need to be done, no matter which way you do it.

I still have many to do; if fact, I still have most of them to do.

To add to the complexity, you may want to make projects of themes that are different from your initial organization. Example, I have a project of my sister's children, the early years, and then others of Birthdays by child. Same material, different organization.

Comments?

John CB

Thanks, John. It seems our methods aren't so different, although I'm only working on Super 8 cine so sound is an issue with every imported reel.  I assume you're using your "telecine" setup to assist in synchronising the clean sound from your projector with the camera recording?  I've found little difficulty in syncing audio and video in MEP once the speed-corrected video is on a track above the audio, using snap markers near the beginning of the audio track and time stretching near the end. 

I have two varieties of cine film: (i) general stuff and (ii) railway stuff.  I'd really appreciate your comment on my m.o. regarding the railway stuff, much of which needs to be stabilised (despite my use of a tripod most of the time).  Although slowing the general stuff from 20fps down to 18fps produces a good result, anything involving a steadily moving object (e.g. a train) across line of sight results in a stuttery kind of motion, and on close inspection the wheels actually stop turning for a fraction of a second every second or so.  Not exactly an acceptable result. The easy answer, of course, is to tick the checkbox "Insert interpolated intermediate images" and it all looks fine again.  Problem is that these synthesised frames play merry hell with the stabilisation effect (in anyone's program - I've tried three!) and it doesn't seem to make any difference whether the speed or the stabilisation effect is applied first, or if the clip is exported after the first effect but before the second.  So, I'm presently thinking of keeping the video speed at 20 fps (and time-stretching the audio) on the basis that an 11% increase in the speed of a train is really not noticeable (although a purist might object on principle), whereas a train that hops across the screen certainly does look rather strange.

Can you think of a better way of dealing with this little problem?

Also, while I have your attention, just HOW does one formulate the address for a particular person - e.g. (at)Richard-Curtis?  I've tried a few dodges, none work...!

Thanks again!

Richard

@Richard-Curtis

HOW does one formulate the address for a particular person - e.g. (at)Richard-Curtis?  I've tried a few dodges, none work...!

Simply type the @ (and don't hit the Space bar immediately). You should see a list of the forum names of everyone who has contributed to this particular thread; simply select the one you wish to insert. (The idea is that, if that person has made the appropriate setting in their forum profile, they should eventually receive an email notifying them of your reply.

HTH

(I'll leave @browj2 or @johnebaker to respond to your substantive question.)

Jeff

@Richard-Curtis

Just to be clear about the speed, especially for others reading this: The film was scanned at 20fps even though S8 is 18fps; my project is set for NTSC 29.97 fps. Yours may be set to something else, like 25fps. When I import, I change nothing and checking under Effects, Video effects, Speed, I see that the Frame rate is 20. I change this to 18. The factor is now 0.90.

I haven't had the same wheel spinning problem that you have, so I hadn't tried checking "Interpolate intermediate images" under Object Properties. I thought that that was only for interlaced material but I see not. I just tried it and it did indeed play havoc with Mercalli v4 stabilization, but not always.

Just to make sure, did you export to mxv after adjusting the speed and applying the Interpolate intermediate images, then importing and applying stabilization to it? I just tried it and it was worse. Actually, the test of applying intermediate images followed by Mercalli v4 was quite good in this particular case.

I think that I'll try to avoid applying the interpolation of intermediate images.

As for synchronizing audio with video, I usually find it easier to synchronize the video images rather than trying to determine how to sync the audio with the images, especially when there is no obvious frame that I could link to the sound. Remember, the digitized video has no audio. The telecine video has audio and it is easy to sync its audio with the clean audio taken at the same time and speed using the features of MEP/VPX, group them, and then visually line up the frames. I usually have to stretch the telecine video slightly and the linked audio to account for drift. The projector is not perfectly at 18fps.

One thing that I didn't mention before is that I use VPX, so I have the Project Temp Folder. With this, I can optionally create subfolders by subject and then use the Insert in Project Temp Folder command for just the cut up clips. This puts the characteristics of the clip, including any effects, in a virtual folder, rather than having a take (actually file). Then I can export the folder and import it into a new project. Nothing comes on the timeline, but I have all of the relevant clips in the Project Temp Folder and I can then put them on the timeline, as is, or trimmed.

John CB

Hi Jeff

I'd already tried your solution, but it didn't work.  All I get after clicking on the addressee is a popup window asking me to select whether I want to stay on the page, or leave it. Once or twice I got some sort of garbled URL address.  I think there must be something wrong with my settings, although exactly where I don't have a clue.

Richard  

Hi John

To answer your question, I tried every combination but still got an unacceptable stabilisation result. Also, on final export I do indeed render for PAL 25fps.  But, as mentioned earlier, I have no problem living with the 20fps raw cine as opposed to the speed-corrected 18fps if nothing better turns up.

Richard 

@Richard-Curtis

Hi Richard,

This is what should happen when you want to include a user link as @emmrecs (Jeff) has commented ie

. . . . Simply type the @ (and don't hit the Space bar immediately) . . . . .

If you are not seeing this, then I think you are clicking on the users Avatar which will ask you to leave the page..

HTH

John EB

Hi John EB

I can click anywhere on anyone's avatar, name or strip in the table that appears when I type "@", and I still get the same unhelpful popup appearing.  I can't show it to you because for me (and apparently only me) the forum won't upload a jpg file either.  Has Magix got it in for me, do you think?

Richard   

@Richard-Curtis

Perhaps it's a security setting in your browser or some plugin preventing popups.

Sometimes it is the site though. I often get people missing from the list of contributors that should be there but it's odd you can't even upload a jpg. (they do have to be under 2MB to load.)

@Richard-Curtis

Hi

I strongly suspect the issue is connected with your browser and/or a combination of one or more of the following:

1. Safari - this is the only one I know that can have issues.
2. Antivirus
3. a popup blocker - either an internal part of the browser or a plugin
4. javascript security options.

I have just tested Firefox, Chrome, Edge and Internet Explorer - all latest versions - and they all work fine.

HTH

John EB

@browj2 @Richard-Curtis

I haven't had the same wheel spinning problem that you have, so I hadn't tried checking "Interpolate intermediate images" under Object Properties. I thought that that was only for interlaced material but I see not. I just tried it and it did indeed play havoc with Mercalli v4 stabilization, but not always.

I saw a post in the German forum about problems with Vegas stabilization that is a bug and occurs with interlaced material only and is going to be fixed in a coming patch. Maybe this is a problem with other stabilizers as well.

Is it present during preview, or export as well. If the former it could be a display problem which might be confirmed by switching to Compatibility mode in the Program settings.

What happens if you check (or uncheck) Interpolate Intermediate Images in the Speed effect window instead of the object properties?

@Scenestealer

The stabilisation problem remains when the file is exported - and I was exporting in 1080p. I don't believe it's a program issue as such, but rather a general phenomenon associated with interpolated frames in any program.  You don't get the problem if you choose not to insert interpolating frames - but then you have to live with the resulting jerky motion of fast-moving objects.

Richard

@Scenestealer

Remember, we're talking about digitized Super8 film, digitized at 20fps, normally changed to 18fps in a 25 or 29.97fps project. Applying the interpolated frames hopefully would create something to compensate for MEP creating duplicate frames.

Here's a simplified example as to what probably happens when adding interpolation. I made a Travel Maps video with the longest duration that I could (source was a gps file) with an avatar and then slowed it way down. This gives a jerky motion to the avatar from one point to another since MEP created duplicate frames. Applying interpolated frames in this case created some phantoms of the avatar. In the case of the S8 films, the something similar would happen. I would expect that a stabilization program would have a lot of trouble trying to analyze this.

You can see the phantom in the image, I hope.

Using interpolated frames in the S8 looked smoother than without it, but upon adding stabilization, things went awry. Without interpolated frames, stabilization worked well.

I was not aware of the possibility of creating interpolated frames. I always thought that it was impossible; Magix to me.

I have seen complaints on the French forum about the Vegas Stabilization tool not working or not working properly in MEP2020, which I don't have.

John CB

@browj2

Yes John I understand what you are doing but just wondered if the Interpolate Frames option had the same effect for you when applied from the Speed Effect window as it does by applying it in the Object Properties window?

The object of my previous post was just to suggest there may be an identified bug that causes all the stabilisers to misbehave with Interlaced (interpolated?) material that may be just to - Vegas Stabilisation, all Stabi plug ins, or just MEP2020 (it may have been in 2019 but no one noticed as interlaced recording is not so common now days).

To be honest I have never understood the Interpolate frames in the Magix Speed effect which is supposed to make slowed down material look better. In every instance I have tried it over the years it has only made the slowmo'd footage look much worse with those horrible ghosted frames you mention. Have you (or anyone else) ever found an instance where it has helped.

Peter

@Richard-Curtis, @browj2, @Scenestealer

Hi

As I see it the issue with interpolated frames and stabilisation is a result of how the 2 effects are working/applied with the source video.

This is what I suspect is happening:

1. Stabilization parameters are calculated and 'applied' the instance you apply it using the existing frames that are available in the video object for analysis - at this stage the interpolated frames do not exist.
    
2. On preview or exporting the interpolated frames are calculated and then the stabilization parameters applied, however the stabilisation has no parameters for the extra frames so they are not stabilised and give rise to the jerkiness seen in the preview/export.

Re. Vegas stabilisation - personally I have found this to be very aggressive, compared to Mercalli, with too high a degree of zooming and very little in the way of making adjustments to the results.

. . . . Have you (or anyone else) ever found an instance where it has helped. . . . .

Yes, however the results you get depend very much on the source video, it works much better with interlaced video than progressive. I have had very successful results with speeds down to 0.1 x of original interlaced video, however for progressive the best I can get with minimal ghosting is 0.25 x.

HTH

John EB

@Scenestealer

Hi Peter,

Once again, I never noticed 'Interpolate intermediate image' in the Speed dialogue.

I did a test on some S8 footage and scrubbed through 1 frame at a time. On the part that I looked at, I could see the duplicate frames - nothing changed. When I applied interpolation, the duplicate images changed and playback looked smoother. Very interesting!

I applied Mercalli in both cases and once again, the result was worse with interpolation than without.

One more thing, unchecking interpolation or checking it after Mercalli was performed did not cause Mercalli to indicate that an analysis was required. As well, turning on interpolation, doing Mercalli and then turning off interpolation looks the same as doing Mercalli with interpolation turned off to begin with.

John CB

@johnebaker

Cross-posted. As I indicated, if I turn on interpolation, I can see the changed frames immediately.

We did the test of adding interpolation, exporting, importing, applying Mercalli, and the result was the same as adding interpolation and doing Mercalli.

I think that for cases when the camera is on a tripod and no stabilization is required, for S8 film, turning on interpolation will help. For handheld shots, interpolation off, Mercalli on.

John CB