Mental model for working with alpha masks?

terrypin wrote on 11/17/2012, 1:11 PM

I've got a block about how to visualise alpha masks in MEP that's driving me nuts and I'm hoping that someone can set me straight please!

I think of MEP tracks as layers. If two opaque objects are placed in tracks 1 and 2 you will only see the one in track 2.

 

Similarly, if track 1 contains an opaque object and track 2 contains a mask, say a circular shape on a black background, which has been made transparent with Chroma key > White, then you'll see 'through' the white circle. So in practice you'll see the central circular section of your photo or video. And if, as here, the black background isn't large enough, you'll get an unacceptable result. That's all fine so far.

 

 

But suppose you apply alpha to that same mask and place it on track 1, with the main object now in track 2, what then? That simple mental model (looking down through layers) now breaks down. Visualising it like that, you shouln't be able to see through any part of the track 2 object. But of course you can.

 

 

My best stab at a revised mental model so far is that an object that has been given the alpha type somehow 'spreads' its transparency to all layers above it. Therefore defying the normal rules. Is that about right please?

 

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Last changed by terrypin on 11/17/2012, 1:19 PM, changed a total of 7 times.

Terry, East Grinstead, UK. PC: i7 6700K, 4.0 GHz, 32GB with Win 10 pro. Used many earlier versions of MEPP, currently mainly MEPP 2016 & 2017 (Using scores of macro scripts to add functionality, tailored to these versions.)

Comments

johnebaker wrote on 11/18/2012, 11:05 AM

Hi Terry

Add to the mental model that there is a virtual track 0, above track 1, that is always black - then everything makes sense.

John

 

Last changed by johnebaker on 11/18/2012, 11:05 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

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terrypin wrote on 11/18/2012, 12:54 PM

Thanks John, didn't know that. But it doesn't affect my question about an alpha object does it? Am I right about alpha adding transparency to objects in tracks above it (i.e. higher track numbers)? That still seems the only way I can square what happens in practice with the model of looking down through tracks from higher to lower numbers.

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Last changed by terrypin on 11/18/2012, 12:54 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

Terry, East Grinstead, UK. PC: i7 6700K, 4.0 GHz, 32GB with Win 10 pro. Used many earlier versions of MEPP, currently mainly MEPP 2016 & 2017 (Using scores of macro scripts to add functionality, tailored to these versions.)

johnebaker wrote on 11/18/2012, 2:04 PM

Hi Terry

It does, however I think of it as

'what does it let show through from a lower track number',

So in your example, depending on where the black is, whatever is on a lower track number will show through.

If the Alpha mask is on track 1 then wherever it is black will black ie the virtual track 0 is always black so you see black.

Hope this help with the mental gymnastics of inverse logic depending on which track the alpha mask is on.

John

 

Last changed by johnebaker on 11/18/2012, 2:15 PM, changed a total of 2 times.

VPX 16, Movie Studio 2025, and earlier versions 2015 and 2016, Music Maker Premium 2024.

PC - running Windows 11 23H2 Professional on Intel i7-8700K 3.2 GHz, 16GB RAM, RTX 2060 6GB 192-bit GDDR6, 1 x 1Tb Sabrent NVME SSD (OS and programs), 2 x 4TB (Data) internal HDD + 1TB internal SSD (Work disc), + 6 ext backup HDDs.

Laptop - Lenovo Legion 5i Phantom - running Windows 11 23H2 on Intel Core i7-10750H, 16GB DDR4-SDRAM, 512GB SSD, 43.9 cm screen Full HD 1920 x 1080, Intel UHD 630 iGPU and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060 (6GB GDDR6)

Sony FDR-AX53e Video camera, DJI Osmo Action 3 and Sony HDR-AS30V Sports cams.

terrypin wrote on 11/18/2012, 4:47 PM

Hi John,

I'm going to have to read that again in the morning a few times, after a large coffee! But right now I still don't grasp how I can see anything if the highest track number (the 'top' layer) contains a simple image or video. It's opaque. So how can anything else underneath be seen? Unless, as I conjectured, giving one of those lower track objects the 'magical' alpha atttibute somehow copies its transparent sections to the higher tracks?

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Last changed by terrypin on 11/18/2012, 4:47 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

Terry, East Grinstead, UK. PC: i7 6700K, 4.0 GHz, 32GB with Win 10 pro. Used many earlier versions of MEPP, currently mainly MEPP 2016 & 2017 (Using scores of macro scripts to add functionality, tailored to these versions.)

johnebaker wrote on 11/19/2012, 4:08 PM

Hi Terry

Invert your thinking ie think of it as  Top layer - Down and not Bottom layer - Up

John

Last changed by johnebaker on 11/19/2012, 4:08 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

VPX 16, Movie Studio 2025, and earlier versions 2015 and 2016, Music Maker Premium 2024.

PC - running Windows 11 23H2 Professional on Intel i7-8700K 3.2 GHz, 16GB RAM, RTX 2060 6GB 192-bit GDDR6, 1 x 1Tb Sabrent NVME SSD (OS and programs), 2 x 4TB (Data) internal HDD + 1TB internal SSD (Work disc), + 6 ext backup HDDs.

Laptop - Lenovo Legion 5i Phantom - running Windows 11 23H2 on Intel Core i7-10750H, 16GB DDR4-SDRAM, 512GB SSD, 43.9 cm screen Full HD 1920 x 1080, Intel UHD 630 iGPU and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060 (6GB GDDR6)

Sony FDR-AX53e Video camera, DJI Osmo Action 3 and Sony HDR-AS30V Sports cams.

terrypin wrote on 11/19/2012, 4:18 PM

Thanks John, but the penny still hasn't dropped for me. How does that help me to visualise what's happening in the example I specified? And are you saying that you think of it 'bottom up' only when alpha is involved?

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Last changed by terrypin on 11/19/2012, 4:18 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

Terry, East Grinstead, UK. PC: i7 6700K, 4.0 GHz, 32GB with Win 10 pro. Used many earlier versions of MEPP, currently mainly MEPP 2016 & 2017 (Using scores of macro scripts to add functionality, tailored to these versions.)

cpc000cpc wrote on 11/19/2012, 4:47 PM

I'll jump in with an image which I hope shows clearly the Magix track viewing convention -- Looking UP through tracks from higher to lower numbers as if they were planes of a model stage set.

Of course you would only see the front wall track in the project shown above until we introduce some alpha masks. I think of masks as mirrors with some areas of silver removed -- you see what's in front (higher number track) where it is silver and what's in back (lower number track) where it is plain glass. The silver/glass relate to white/black of the mask (OR black/white if you click on the up down arrow of an alpha track to reverse the effect.)

So now lets add a rectangular mask between the 'back wall' and the 'figures' ('mid wall' has been removed to keep it simple preserve a bit of my sanity.)

With track 4 and 5 muted you get to see the back wall only where the alpha mask is black. Sorry about the bits of black at the top and bottom -- that's seeing John's virtual black track 0 as I didn't proportion my back wall image properly.

With all five tracks visible we now see the front wall (pixilated for emphasis) only where the big circle mask is white. Where it is black we see everything that's behind (higher on screen - lower number tracks) -- which in this case happens to be a composite of two images and an interleaved alpha mask.

Simple!  

Regards,

Carl

ADDED: Not to forget that alpha masks can be grey scale as well to give partial transparency. A colored mask is interpreted on brightness levels. And if you want to explore further apply the alpha mask effect to a video clip! 

terrypin wrote on 11/20/2012, 2:45 AM

Hi Carl,

Many thanks! Much appreciate your help. I'm going to set aside enough time today to study that carefully. Or maybe tonight with a glass of Shiraz...

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Last changed by terrypin on 11/20/2012, 2:45 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

Terry, East Grinstead, UK. PC: i7 6700K, 4.0 GHz, 32GB with Win 10 pro. Used many earlier versions of MEPP, currently mainly MEPP 2016 & 2017 (Using scores of macro scripts to add functionality, tailored to these versions.)

terrypin wrote on 11/20/2012, 3:36 AM

 I think of masks as mirrors with some areas of silver removed -- you see what's in front (higher number track) 

Bingo! You're a star, Carl, that's exactly what I was looking for.

(I wasn't far out with my tentative conjecture earlier, about alpha masks 'magically' making sections of higher tracks transparent. But the breakthrough is that it's all done with mirrors!)

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

 

Last changed by terrypin on 11/20/2012, 3:36 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

Terry, East Grinstead, UK. PC: i7 6700K, 4.0 GHz, 32GB with Win 10 pro. Used many earlier versions of MEPP, currently mainly MEPP 2016 & 2017 (Using scores of macro scripts to add functionality, tailored to these versions.)