@lauriemessage @emmrecs

Hi

.....and an MVD file on the Magix backup CD.

Is this a CD (DVD?) backup of the projects .MVD (Movie file) created using the backup feature in the File menu of an earlier version of MEP? If so it may contain the original footage as well meaning the whole project could be loaded and edited in VPX and this would be preferable to use to do more video and audio cleaning rather than use a highly compressed MPEG2 .VOB file.

Peter

@lauriemessage, @emmrecs

Hi

. . . . .VOB files can be directly imported to the VPX timeline (just make sure you insert them in the "right" order. They are consecutively numbered . . . .

Do not import the VIDEO_TS.VOB file, this is the disc menu background file.

The video file naming is VTS_01_0.VOB and the last number may be in sequence if there are more than 1 VOB file for the movie.

If there is a second movie on the disc the starting file will be VTS_02_0.VOB and the last number again may be in sequence if there are more than 1 VOB for the second movie.

. . . . the Neat Video plugin (not especially cheap but well worth every penny, IMO) . . . .

I agree with Jeff on this, Neat Video is a superb plug-in for de-noising video, however there is a gotcha, the plugin is very demanding on your computer and depending on its specification exporting can take up to 10 x or more longer than the actual length of the movie.

John EB

Thanks for your replies! I am going to try to upload a few window snips of the contents of the backup CD. The first is the main menu which includes, among other things, two Restore files. The other is of the contents of the Data folder. The movie itself consists of 8 chapters. If the attachments shed any further light on how to proceed, please let me know. Appreciate your helpful comments!

@lauriemessage

Your screen shots appear to be 2 X Data CD'S or DVD's from a back up set from MEP that covers 12 or more discs so it is possible that there are copies of you original video files somewhere in the set. What format were the video clips recorded in? Were they from a camcorder that records to a DVD mini disk and could this be the .VOB's on disc12 - although I think DVD camcorders use .m(2)ts format? Do video files appear on any of the other discs, and what is in the "Data" folder on Disc 5?

Peter

@lauriemessage

Your screen shots appear to be 2 X Data CD'S or DVD's from a back up set from MEP that covers 12 or more discs so it is possible that there are copies of you original video files somewhere in the set. What format were the video clips recorded in? Were they from a camcorder that records to a DVD mini disk and could this be the .VOB's on disc12 - although I think DVD camcorders use .m(2)ts format? Do video files appear on any of the other discs, and what is in the "Data" folder on Disc 5?

Peter

There is only one CD. The number 5 refers to the number of files on the disc. The movies were originally recorded with an 8mm camera. Sorry for any confusion.

@lauriemessage

OK no problem. I realise that the movies were originally 8mm film but what and where are the digitised video files that were created during film scanning and supplied to you. Are they in fact the .VOB files in your 2nd file explorer screen shot and shown exactly as they were supplied to you? This folder appears to have been created after the files were brought into MEP as there are Magix files in there.

@lauriemessage

OK no problem. I realise that the movies were originally 8mm film but what and where are the digitised video files that were created during film scanning and supplied to you. Are they in fact the .VOB files in your 2nd file explorer screen shot and shown exactly as they were supplied to you? This folder appears to have been created after the files were brought into MEP as there are Magix files in there.

We do not know. Will see if we can find the originals somewhere but doubt we'll find them. Having said that, there's a small chance the .VOB files on the Magix backup disk are the originals. Thanks.

@lauriemessage

My guess is that the company that scanned the 8mm film supplied the digital files in the form of a DVD Video disc, rather that a data disc with the individual MPEG files in a folder, therefore I think your .VOB's are the ones that you used to create the .MVD movie that you subsequently backed up through MEP and as such are all that you have for further editing. You should be able to restore the back up .MVD and pick up from where you left off.

@lauriemessage

My guess is that the company that scanned the 8mm film supplied the digital files in the form of a DVD Video disc, rather that a data disc with the individual MPEG files in a folder, therefore I think your .VOB's are the ones that you used to create the .MVD movie that you subsequently backed up through MEP and as such are all that you have for further editing. You should be able to restore the back up .MVD and pick up from where you left off.

 

I just found what appears to be the original source of the 8mm files. They are on a VHS cassette. We must have copied them onto a computer in 2006 and that's how the MVD movie was created.

@lauriemessage @emmrecs @johnebaker

I just found what appears to be the original source of the 8mm files. They are on a VHS cassette. We must have copied them onto a computer in 2006 and that's how the MVD movie was created.

Phew! Then you have got quite a task ahead of you to get some reasonable picture quality when starting from that point, and I would say that Neat Video plugin would be essential. I do not have it but those de-noising programs often have a sharpening filter built in which may be better than using the VPX one as it probably applies it after the denoise has been carried out (which is better).

Still a little bit puzzled by the presence of .VOB being from the Magix analogue to digital capture as I would have thought this would have created a .mpg file..... but somewhere in the murky past of very early versions of MEP I seem to remember that it was possible to capture direct to a DVD Video disc....??

You might actually be better off recapturing from the VHS to a less compressed format like DV-AVI or better.

Peter

Phew! Then you have got quite a task ahead of you to get some reasonable picture quality when starting from that point, and I would say that Neat Video plugin would be essential. I do not have it but those de-noising programs often have a sharpening filter built in which may be better than using the VPX one as it probably applies it after the denoise has been carried out (which is better).

Still a little bit puzzled by the presence of .VOB being from the Magix analogue to digital capture as I would have thought this would have created a .mpg file..... but somewhere in the murky past of very early versions of MEP I seem to remember that it was possible to capture direct to a DVD Video disc....??

You might actually be better off recapturing from the VHS to a less compressed format like DV-AVI or better.

Upon further investigation, we found a DVD with a "Mike's Camera" label that also says "the digital imaging experts" and checked it out. We found that the files on the VHS tape had been transferred by Mike's Camera onto the DVD in 2006. This has to be the missing source of the files that were loaded into an old version of MEP and then used to make the movie in question. It's only 3 minutes long.

We copied the contents of the Magix backup disk onto the hard drive and got the movie to load into Pro X, yay! By changing the brightness and contrast, we improved some of the segments. Others need more work so we are going to try Neat Video.

There is a lot of other old video from the sixties on the DVD that we will try to improve too.

Thanks again for all your help here! Much appreciated.

@lauriemessage

The use of Effects>Sharpness can certainly improve any "soft" footage", along with the Neat Video plugin (not especially cheap but well worth every penny, IMO); together these two can improve the visual appearance of your footage considerably.

HTH

Jeff
Forum Moderator

Thanks for mentioning Neat Video! We bought a copy, and it has helped us improve the old footage a lot. Great product!!

If there is a plugin that can help lighten a shaded area (with daylight behind/beyond), please advise. Some of the old 8mm was shot in the shade of trees, so faces are hard to distinguish. This was in the early days of using 8mm so the people filming had no idea that would be a problem.

@lauriemessage

Hi

. . . . If there is a plugin that can help lighten a shaded area (with daylight behind/beyond), . . . .

You do not need a plugin the effect is already in Video Pro X - select the Brightness/Contrast effect.

Below the Brightness and Contrast controls you will see Gamma use this to brighten the darker parts.

I would suggest using the Lows option from the drop down, as shown in the image below, to limit brightening of the highs.

HTH

John EB

@lauriemessage

Hi Laurie.

In my opinion.

While I am sure there are archival effects out there that claim to work and up to a point will do something, first really have a good look at the footage. If a colour is completely saturated or if a section within a frame is completely black or white, depending on the bit depth of the digital file, there may be nothing there to improve. Or if there is something there to improve, a few frames ahead or behind may suffer from the post processing.

The plug in would have to work in a similar way to neat video, working frame by frame.

You are already working one step away from the original source files and it will be difficult to improve on a format that is already compromised. Expecting to improve on it too much may be a step too far.

John's advice is about as far as I think you can personally go but.

Most of what can be done is done from source files and not from second generation copies and even then there are limits.

Ray.

@lauriemessage

Hi

I should have added, and agree with, what @CubeAce said above, about the limitations of getting some thing useful out of the shadows there must be sufficient range for Gamma to work.

If as Ray said, the shadows are totally black then there is nothing to improve and there is no plugin at all that can do this, the same goes for burned out at the Highlights, if there are patches of pure whiteyou cannot recover anything there either.

John EB

@lauriemessage @johnebaker @CubeAce

Hi

I would use the excellent HDR Gamma slider in the Contrast / Brightness effects section of VPX for bringing detail out of the dark areas if there is any detail hidden in there that has not been lost by the "baking in" of the successive generation(s) that Ray was referring to. I use this a lot to lift the dark areas and to give the lower to mid areas a bit more pop and it does not increase the bright areas. Once you have lifted the lower end you can bring the overall brightness slider down a little to bring out a bit more detail in the highlights if there is any to be had.

This is a clever tool as it creates an inverted alpha mask over the whole clip which faithfully follows each frame and avoids the necessity for a frame by frame analysis that Ray was referring to here:- " Or if there is something there to improve, a few frames ahead or behind may suffer from the post processing.The plug in would have to work in a similar way to neat video, working frame by frame."

I restrict the amount of HDR gamma to 20 on the slider, as above that you can start to see the outline of the mask. Brightness slider no more than -5 to -8 as you will start to see the clipping of the burned out portions.

Peter

@Scenestealer

Hi Peter

I did not recommend using HDR Gamma because I have had some issues with it, however looking at the settings you are using I may have been over doing it.

Time to revisit it again as I do have some images of very high contrast, bright sunlight/deep shadows and fortunately no black or burnt out areas, in the current project which I have been tweaking using the Gamma Low settings.

John EB

@johnebaker

Hi John

Yes, stick with it, i can't recommend it enough!

Peter

@Scenestealer @johnebaker @emmrecs @lauriemessage

Hi Peter.

I think that subject is worthy of a tutorial of its own as it is quite complex for people to get their heads around.

I was still quite young (about 14) when I remember using super 8 cameras. Mainly my friends camera doing odd weird stuff to while away school holidays. What I remember about my friends' camera was there was no real way of controlling exposure beyond the film you bought. I don't remember anyone owning ND filters back then for Super 8 or Standard 8mm. Film choice also seemed to be key if I remember correctly. Also the tech has changed somewhat now going from 8 to 10 and now 12 bit recordings. I'm not even sure a Super 8, well transferred to digital recording could beat an  reasonably recorded 8 bit digitally recorded video file.  

The VPX Brightness Contrast controls are definitely a good step up from MEP offerings and I also have found the use of the Gamma and HDR Gamma controls to be extremely useful they still won't work on the blown out areas. If anything it makes for a very odd viewing experience in my opinion and sometimes best left alone for the sake of what is in the rest of the frames.

Clouds are my biggest bane if bleached. Also have you noticed the bit rates you have to set for exports if you are to get what you see in the editor to successfully be transferred to a good exported file and keep that contrast ratio in tact?

Yes, I would certainly like to see a tutorial on the use of this effect as it is far from easy to get a good result. Any insights you might have on the subject I'm sure I could learn from as I have found plenty of my own clips that could benefit as shooting on the fly as I often have to, results in far from ideal footage.

A good for instance of when I can't get  good balance is 47 seconds in on the video below. I think that short clip would just be better off not touched.

It's still a work in progress as well so not finished and put up as a public viewing. Any comments for improvements to show up the bricks more would be welcome. Of course by the time it's on YouTube it has been converted a third time but it's not far off what I see directly playing the clip on my PC.

Ray.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray

. . . . I can't get  good balance is 47 seconds in on the video below . . . .

I think there is another issue at that point, even at FullHD the video looks slightly blurred in the brick wall and the house on the left does it look like this on the original or is the YT recompress messing it up?

John EB

@CubeAce

Hi Ray,

In your video, I noticed that some scenes could use a bit of HDR gamma, like the Eiffel Tower at about 1:12. Like Peter, I restrict the HDR Gamma to about 20 and make a slight adjustment to the HDR blur. I sometimes use a combination of this with HDR, either full or low.

To assist, turn on the measuring instruments and watch what happens when you make adjustments to brightness using the various tools, including the curves. I'm in NTSC land, so I turn on Display IRE 7.5 black level (NTSC) for the Waveform monitor.

As a quick example, I took the following image and applied some correction using HDR Gamma and Blue curve.

After, with more definition in the trees:

HDR = 20, and the Blue curve adjusted. I took out a bit too much blue, making the image more green. I also adjusted the bottom of the RGB curve to bring the bottom up to 7.5.

Here are the instruments, before and after:

You can see the gap in the blue. Below is the result of the modification to the blue curve. Needs more work.

Below is the blue curve. I can see that I need to bring down the top of the RGB curve to get it at 100%

The problem with using the colour curves is that they cannot be keyframed.

John CB

@browj2

Hi John.

I agree with everything you say about the problems involved with adjusting colour curves or overall Gamma. It will vary from frame to frame as well as between the lighter and shadier parts of an image making brighter areas warmer while cooling shadow parts. Trying to correct one part within a frame will do the opposite to another part of the frame. We are all working with mediums not capable of capturing the gamut we are presented with in the real world. That everything is compromise before we even start.

Then there are differences between each viewers screen they watch on. Some manufactures actual pixel colours are not the same. Nor is the nit brightness of the screens, assuming the screen is even calibrated. No two people are ever going to witness the same result of any file when viewed o different equipment.

Even the act of uploading to YouTube had effected the outcome of what I see between viewing it on my browser (another choice where differences can occur) and seeing it directly from the finished file on my PC.

I loaded both and took an image of the same frame and laid one half direct from my PC to the left and YouTubes' offering on the right, splitting the image half way down the tower.

You can see already the left half has better contrast. How much is due to YouTube or my choice of web browser I couldn't tell you.

Inside of VPX I haven't actually altered anything that much. The histogram is not hitting either end of the graph so no deep backs or brilliant whites to begin with.

You can tell there is little direct sunshine. In all, easier to adjust if I wanted to. Whereas the bit I was referring to has too much area in the clouds to bring back regardless of what I try.

So I have two choices, dump the clip or use it more or less 'as is' and hope no-one really cares except me.

Ray.