Thank You

Mike

https://vimeo.com/111165610

@CarpentersMate

Mike,

I exported to MPEG 2 (as suggested), adjusted the size and frame rate in MAGIX export settings however the resulted file is not recognized by Quick Time ...

I don't have an explanation for that; it could be an Apple/QT-specific thing, which I have no experience with. There should be no reason for QT to not recognise them; it's a pretty standard video format. Do they open OK in, say, VLC Player?

What format is 'pure DV' ?

I probably led you astray here; just ignore the word "pure"! 😉

Yes, you have an interesting problem; the classic cost-benefit conundrum. Your options:

Capture and Archive as DV-AVI

Pros: Direct digital to digital transfer, retains original video quality for later editing.

Cons: Biggest storage requirement. DV-AVI is 13gb per hour. 1000hrs would fit on 2 x 8tb HDDs, plus 2 HDDs for backup. If this is an "official" project, you should get someone to pay, at least partially, for the HDDs.

Comment: Use Scenealyser, not MEP, to capture DV. Scenealyser will scene-split based on timecode (hours, days, months) and filenames are based on the timecode start for each file. Much easier to work with, especially if picked up by a third party later on. MEP will simply capture one 60 minute file per tape (if you can actually record; my MEP won't capture a DV tape at the moment, whereas Scenealyser will).

Capture and Archive as MPEG 2 or 4

Pros: Lesser storage requirements. For SD, high rate MPEG 2 is around 6gb per hour, high rate MPEG 4 is around 4gb per hour.

Cons: You're creating a second generation video because you are encoding from DV to MPEG 2/4 "on the fly" as the recording progresses. You'll then be editing and re-encoding that again for the final output. Encoding on the fly, especially to MPEG 4, requires a hefty system. You'll need third-party software (and possibly hardware), as MEP can't capture direct to MP4.

Capture as DV-AVI then Archive as MPEG 4

You could capture as DV then export as MPEG 4, all from MEP.

Pros: No extra software required. Reduced storage requirements. Better on the quality front because the encoding isn't being conducted in real-time.

Cons: MEP is slow exporting MP4; check your system export speed (though I have read here that new systems with hardware acceleration for rendering go pretty fast with the current versions of MEP 2021/2022). You can set up MEP to batch-export MPEG 4 so you could potentially export a few tapes a night (after you have "captured" them in DV). Slight quality hit, as described above.

My suggestion: Option 1. This retains best quality for later editing.

Food for thought! 🙂

@CarpentersMate

Mike, some interesting comments on a similar scenario to yours here:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/402827-How-to-Capture-700-Mini-DV#post2628831

Hi AA 🤓

Thanx for staying with me on this I really appreciate it.

Here's some screen shots info/details regarding MPEG-2 & MPEG-4 and Quicktime's 'Error 2408' (which I attribute to possible Improper Codec)?

http://www.ww2survivorstories.com/Magix.html

Thanks Again

Mike

@CarpentersMate

Hi Mike

. . . . Would a larger initial 'captured file' resulted in a higher quality output file? I'm not convinced.  . . .

For me the issue is not whether a larger initial captured file would give higher quality - it will help maintain the best quality it can from the source video which is SD.

SD video is 720 x 480 for NTSC (720 x 576 for PAL) and In my view, whatever you play this on and it is upscaled, eg 1920 x 1080 or higher resolution monitor, TV or other device, there is going to be a loss of percieved (visual) quality.

However the viewer will to a large extent ignore this given the original time period the subject was filmed and the poor quality of some of the film sources of that period, especially if they were filmed on 16mm or smaller film stock.

John EB

@CarpentersMate Mike,

Re the linked post, I wanted it to reiterate the point of capturing in DV-AVI, then export to MPEG 2 or 4 for distribution. I don't suggest using Movie Maker.

Re your QT message with your MPEG 2 file, I did find this old post on an Apple forum:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3079141?answerId=15802960022#15802960022

You may have to buy the MPEG 2 decoder.

Could you clarify on what device you're having trouble with the MPEG? A Mac?

And can you confirm it does work in VLC Player?

I noticed your MPEG 2 is "progressive". Try exporting it again as Interlaced, Bottom Field First and see if QT likes it.

Another possibility is that the MPEG 2 coding by MEP 2013 can't be read because it is an early version. I created a MPEG 2 file from a DV-AVI with MEP 2021; see how this goes:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KOuumOUt0LkFDgclOlGGATAm46GJrdGm/view?usp=sharing

If that doesn't work, then you'll have to export as MP4 to make sure you have Apple compatibility. MP4 is a good final delivery format anyway because of it's relatively small file size.

It would help if I went back to the Mac to find out what the initial format was for the thousands of hours captured and edited in Final Cut (an earlier version not X). I believe most of those files were just 'QT' files 

I expect they would have been captured as DV-AVI (I don't know what the file "extension" would have been, possibly MOV). QT is just a player, as far as I understand, not a file type.

Would a larger initial 'captured file' resulted in a higher quality output file? I'm not convinced. Maybe but it might be too late right now?

It's not possible to increase the size of the capture file: DV-AVI is 13gb/hr, and that's that, Mac or PC. Unless of course you capture into MPEG 2 or 4 on the fly, where you can set the bitrate. Re output (into MPEG 2 or 4), if you have the bitrate high enough, you will retain almost all of the original capture quality.

If I can solve the incompatibility problem with 'Quick Time' (ensuring the files open in both the Mac and PC), I might consider re-exporting (the DV that's left) converting the AVI files to MPEG-2 avoiding additional software/steps? If that makes any sense?

See above: if Apple has a fundamental problem with MPEG 2 files (without adding the MPEG 2 codec) then you'll need to convert to MPEG 4. As I've said before though, I would strongly recommend that you archive your captured DV-AVIs as-is.

Alwyn

Alwyn

You mentioned:

"QT is just a player, as far as I understand, not a file type"

See screen shot:

http://www.ww2survivorstories.com/QT-Export.jpg

As for storing AVI files, I'd like to check the other captures to see what they really are ...

You mentioned:

"Could you clarify on what device you're having trouble with the MPEG? A Mac?"

Its only the MPEG-2 format that QT can't recognize. Although I have several machines, I'm currently using a Dell Optiplex 790 to simply capture Mini DV. Its Windows 7 Pro with the specified 'Quick Time Player' (see previous screen shots) for QT details ... I'll be checking the Apple OS to see if an MPEG-2 can be recognized?

Misunderstanding:

"It's not possible to increase the size of the capture file" I surely do NOT want to do that. I was eluding to your point that the capture file should probably not be reduced (but kept within AVI). You mentioned if I archive with MPEG-4 format, it could mean re-encoding a 2nd time (a degeneration) during the final edited output, which is not necessarily optimal - correct? But again please understand we're talking hundreds of hours of archival footage. I'll be checking the other captures ...

"MP4 is a good final delivery format anyway because of it's relatively small file size" I agree however you appear to disagree it may not be desirable to be brought back for editing?

"Apple could have a fundamental problem with MPEG 2 files"

To be determined ... And thanks again Allwyn

http://www.ww2survivorstories.com/previews.html

@AAProds, @CarpentersMate

Hi Alwyn, Mike

Mike is correct in saying the QT is a an 'export format' and is most often seen as one of several 'flavours' - there are others as MOV is a container file.

1. h.264/AVC encoded video which imports into MEP without the need for Quicktime.
    
2. qt   2005.03 (qt  ) which requires Quicktime to import into MEP - as the encoding is JPEG
   
   General
   Complete name                            : W:\MAGIX\DVD_BD_Projects\Resources\Video Loops\MOV\20008-11HD.mov
   Format                                   : MPEG-4
   Format profile                           : QuickTime
   Codec ID                                 : qt   2005.03 (qt  )
   Writing library                          : Apple QuickTime
   Video
   ID                                       : 1
   Format                                   : JPEG
   Codec ID                                 : jpeg
   Duration                                 : 16 s 0 ms
   Bit rate mode                            : Variable
   Bit rate                                 : 53.0 Mb/s
   Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
   Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
   Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
    
3. Another type, that also will not import into MEP, is as 2 except the format/codec ID is PNG .

. . . . Its only the MPEG-2 format that QT can't recognize. . . . .

Is this on the PC, the MAC, or both?

I found this topic on QT not playing Sorenson 3 encoded video which is what the export dialog image is set to encode to.

IIRC Mike we had a discussion about why you were using this file format/codec a while ago.

John EB

@CarpentersMate Mike,

Re QT, yes, we're both right. The Quicktime codec (which MEP 2013 has) is an MPEG 4-type codec and is placed in the MOV container (file extension). The later MEPs do not have that option, although we can export to an Apple device using the H264 codec (which as another type of MPEG 4 in the MP4 container/extension). My ipad will also open vanilla MP4s exported from the main MPEG4 export dialogue of MEP. Of course, the latest MEPs will not run on Windows 7 (they specify Windows 10 and 64 bit)!

I'd wager that the Quicktime/MOV export you showed on that screenshot will open in the Quicktime player on your Dell. FYI, Apple has discontinued to standalone Quicktime player and I've read that it shouldn't be used any more as it is not being updated. VLC Player is a very common player that will play anything.

 I was eluding to your point that the capture file should probably not be reduced (but kept within AVI).

Yes, that's correct. You won't be able to "reduce" the size of the captured file and keep it in AVI as that would involve a re-encode, similar to converting to MPEG 4 or MPEG 2.

You mentioned if I archive with MPEG-4 format, it could mean re-encoding a 2nd time (a degeneration) during the final edited output, which is not necessarily optimal - correct? But again please understand we're talking hundreds of hours of archival footage.

Yes, 2 encodes: the first from DV-AVI from your tape to MPEG 4 for archiving, and then another encode when you finally edit the footage. If you keep the bitrate up, this might be acceptable given it sounds like you are limited by disk space. Once again, the issue is getting the capture into a smaller-size format. Another issue is your system, being an i3 with MEP2013, is going to be pretty choppy/laggy when editing MPEG 4 and painfully slow on exporting. Editing DV-AVI, on the other hand, will be a non-event. MEP absolutely loves DV.

If this was me and I had limited disk space with your Windows system, I'd capture each tape in DV-AVI (I of course use the term "capture" loosely, putting on my hypocrite hat! 😉), then I would export each capture to MPEG 4 for archiving (or I would edit it on the spot). You can then take your MPEG 4s into the Mac world when you are ready to do the final edit. If you could keep your captures in DV, you can edit them on your Mac, which may actually be quicker when encoding them to MPEG 4 anyway. MEP is a dog when encoding to MPEG 4 compared to other software and your i3 and MEP 2013 will make it painful.

This is going to take you SOME time! 😂

@johnebaker Cheers John, we were typing together.

Thank You johnebaker - Thank You Alwyn

Additional Data:

There's an incorrect codec/export setting regarding the MPEG-2? It won't open on the Mac. Maybe we can fix that? Beginning work in 2006, (as suspected) ALL the media was captured using the capture settings as illustrated in the screen shot (Apple OS).

http://www.ww2survivorstories.com/G5-File-ID.jpg

As for the subject matter, the target audience was always narrow. There's countless examples of SD documentaries on Amazon Prime and I'm confident the untold stories of combat and sacrifice will retain its value. Thank you johnebaker for your recent comments.

Here's a few sample edits-exports from AVI:

MPEG-4

http://www.ww2survivorstories.com/111-M-467.mp4

MPEG-2

http://www.ww2survivorstories.com/111-M-467.mpg

Thank You

Mike
 

@CarpentersMate

Hi Mike.

The MPEG-4 file I can open but the MPEG-2 file my browser and security settings insist is an infected file and will not show or download.

The MPEG-4 file opened at the correct resolution (about a quarter of the screen real estate) and looked OK to me.

I can look at such footage at the correct resolution. However when I increase the resolution within the browser I start to see the imperfections of the video even while playing. I don't think this has to do with the lack of original resolution but the effects of the encoding of the MPEG-4 file. I don't know if the original is better or not but suspect not.

The problem is two fold or even three fold as I see it.

Not only are such files reduced in resolution compared to today's offerings but they also have a less wide colour gamut and bit depth. The contrast is weak. The darkest parts are not that dark and the lightest parts not that light.

You can see where the contrast is banding and blocking. I fear that would only get worse if any attempt to sharpen it or add or lessen the contrast. When enlarged I feel it will only look worse and easier to pick out and become more of a visual irritant.

Obviously this is a personal viewpoint and I am willing to accept I am possibly in a minority but If I can easily see this on an HD monitor I shudder to think how much worse it would become with something like an OLED screen.

Personally I am happy to watch at its native resolution where it is much harder to see the flaws and still has some semblance of detail.

I have done similar experiments making 4K footage and up-scaling it to 8K. The results are pretty much the same but slightly less visible compared to actually watching native 8K footage even on a lower specified monitor, the differences can be seen.

Unless there is an additional plugin out there I can't see the tools available within the program being able to improve things that much.

I am now going to await the pounding from fellow members. 😁

Ray.

Hello Ray and Thank You

Yes there's something wrong with the MPEG-2 Export. I think its the codec or incorrect export settings using MEP2013. I doubt its an infection (just the wrong export), or lack of ability using 2013? I'm sure that can be fixed (possibly using a different software as Alwyn mentioned).

In any event I'll continue to retain AVI with the archival footage as Alwyn suggested. As mentioned I'm confident it will always be the 'story' that matters. Its pointless to discuss the quality aspect anymore. It is what it is ...This screen shot should shed some light on the technical limitations when there was no HD in 2006 ...

http://www.ww2survivorstories.com/G5-File-ID.jpg

Years of work cannot just be throw away. And I realize no one is suggesting that. The families of (60 veterans) will definitely see a final production.

As Ray pointed out:

"Personally I am happy to watch at its native resolution where it is much harder to see the flaws and still has some semblance of detail".

Mike

@CarpentersMate Mike:

The MP4 is, to my eye, the wrong aspect ratio. It is currently 3:2 when it should be 4:3. The people's heads currently look a little wide, and setting the aspect ratio to 4:3 in MEP makes them look more natural. The aspect can be easily corrected in MEP by changing the Properties>Video of the video object on the timeline. There is absolutely nothing wrong with SD aspect ie 4:3.

Re the dodgy MPEG 2, I mentioned earlier re your export was Progressive. Try it Bottom Field First.

Otherwise, I have no problems at all with the video and it looks fine on my big TV; it is obviously a transfer from old film, and "average" quality is to be expected, and it looks authentic ie WW2. The worst aspect to me is actually the audio; OK with a headset but difficult to hear from the TV.

While I have said in other topics that upscaling SD video to HD improves the video slightly, I don't think it's needed here.

So, on with the original issue of not enough disk space. Unless you can get that MPEG 2 export sorted out, you'll be committed to capturing in DV in batches, then editing and exporting in high-quality MP4 and using those MP4s as your archive copy. I just did a test run of DV to MP4 with my MEP: it took 2 times as long as the video. An 11:55 minute DV file took 22:55 to encode at 2000kbps. In comparison, another program I have, VideoRedo, took 5:32. At higher bit rates for archiving (I suggest 6000kpbs), you're looking at even longer encode times with MEP, probably around 2.4x. You could do a tape a night.

Hey Alwyn - Nice to hear back from you ...

Those were test clips - Yes the aspect ration was screwy - I stretched things on the fly ... That will be adjusted. The Audio: most of that original sound (although a nice authentic touch), will be used in tiny amounts. Most of it will be discarded. Narration will be over dubbed. Some of the archived stuff is higher quality than others ... some really interesting ...

The problematic MPEG-2 exports: Unless you can see something in the settings to fix that, I'll try using MEP 2016 for better results? I'll also try Progressive as well. As long as the MPEG-2 occupies less space, I can't give up on that, it must be solved somehow ... Yes I understand now, the MPEG exports take a LONG time to process. And I've got an additional 50-60 hours of uncaptured footage! BTW I also use 'Wonder Share' occasionally.

Its disappointing after all these years and discussions, there's still criticism simply because we're not seeing HD. But I don't care anymore because I know how crappy some of those short stories are on U Tube where they simply use ordinary/generic/contemporary media to tell a story... (that's really lame). I'll be incorporating more archival footage than the average documentary. I've made many professional friendships at the Archives (people who work for PBS) and they all agree ...

For a another discussion: I'm looking into improving the subtitles, captions and possibly stretching out the image nearer to 1080. Not much luck with conversion software. Actually MEP seems to do a nice job for that whereas my older version of FC does not ... Was thinking about importing batches of edited video into MEP to get 'crisp' HD titles etc... (for another discussion). Give me your thoughts on that ... 🙂

Thank You Alwyn

Mike

@CarpentersMate

Mike, regarding the term "stretch out to 1080". I would suggest you don't literally do that, where the frame becomes 1920 wide and 1080 high, because the image will look stretched, with super wide/short/fat people.

What I was talking about was "upscaling", where the aspect ratio is maintained at 4:3, but the resolution is increased to 1080 high, which will result in a width of 1440 ie still 4:3. There will still be black bars on the sides.

If you want to get rid of the black bars by going to 16:9 (HD format), you'll have to expand the resolution width further by cutting off video from the top and bottom. That might mean losing important parts of the video (unless you are prepared to edit the frame to adjust up and down dynamically; can be done in MEP).

This is your 4:3 video in a 16:9 frame, losing the top and the bottom:

Thank You

Hi Mike.

I'm assuming you are going to re-export those projects again in MP4 Format using the doubling of the frame rate as discussed earlier as the combing effect is very distracting on all three videos.

Otherwise they work very well. I know doubling the frame rate will double the file size so may negate the effectiveness of using MP4 over MPEG 2.

I use monitors rather than headphones and apart from the odd Sibilance here and there on the interviews the audio I thought was very good and clear. If you are having problems over TV sets outputs I would suggest putting in a 100Hz or thereabouts bass filter cut.

Ray.

@CarpentersMate

Hi Mike.

I know your budget it tight but have you tried reaching out to business? There are a lot of firms with servers and a lot of firms that keep those servers working, doing planned maintenance. Working drives are often swapped out and replaced and will still work for many years. They could be set up into a NAS system for storage with redundancy built in. It may even reduce their e waste costs giving them away. Some firms will not do this in fear of data being recovered but other may. My son is often asked to replace drives simply because they are too small and hardly used. Too small could be 2TB.

It may be worth thinking about.

Ray.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray

. . . .  I can open but the MPEG-2 file my browser and security settings insist is an infected file and will not show or download. . . .

The message is from Firefox not your AV - Firefox is set to accept secure connections on the https: protocol and is telling you that the website does not conform to this setting the website connection protocol is http: as you can see from the links @CarpentersMate posted.

John EB

@johnebaker

Hi John.

Are both files not on the same server then? I hadn't noticed.

Ray.

@CubeAce

Hi Ray

They are - I have just tried the link in Firefox and works correctly offering the download dialog for me.

You may need to check your FF security settings - mine are the default, no cutomisation.

John EB