"I am not sure how Serif is doing this..."

Maybe I'm cynical (or know nothing) but I wonder if they are really shifting video at less than a frame. It would presumably easy enough to have the timeline display a fractional shift, but is the exported material really done that way? And, more to the point, could you hear the difference? Have you examined a Serif export to check the fractional frame shift of the audio track?

I just did a quick test and, though I can follow the beat, I couldn't tell the difference between an audio gap in sync with a single frame overlay and a a gap a full frame later:

Regards,

Carl

Don't get me wrong, this is not a life and death issue for me! The Magix solution has a lot of things going for it - but there have been occasions when the Serif ability to switch off a track's alignment with the timeline has saved my bacon.

The European Broadcasting Union Tech specification 3307 specifies that audio/video sync should be within +5ms and -15ms (early and late respectively) to decoded video. If you are trying to juggle multiple free-running cameras (each deciding its own time reference for the start of frames), and maybe sync up to a separate audio master, I found it makes the job easier in post if you can  'slide tracks' around a little. My main work involves long continuous takes of live classical music concerts, and my experience is that getting soloists (and strangely particularly choirs) to look as if they are properly lip-synced can be tricky. If the only adjustment you have is at frame granularity (in my case with PAL +- 20 ms) the job is harder!

Serif clearly have a different internal mechanism for rendering to Magix. I believe they re-render everything at output regardless, (and they do indeed take ages comparatively speaking to create output), but perhaps it gives them more freedom in actually how they work. 

I'm enjoying getting used to MVP 2015 Plus, and it does produce excellent, satisfying results.  Thanks for your comments.

BTW... I tried switching off "Object Grid" thinking that this might be the equivalent of Serif's "Align to Frames" option, but no joy.  It didn't seem to have any effect whatsoever.

Thanks Recycler for the extended very informative reply!

Perhaps if I had chosen the Bach B minor Mass rather than some handy pop clip I'd have been more in tune (time) with your problem.

Have you tried 'Align other audio objects with this track'? maybe if you have one take that is in perfect (good enough) sync you could auto shift the others to match. I've not got any multiple camera clips to test. A piece of a copy certainly lines up with the original but there is no way of checking if the alignment is still limited to video frame boundaries.

Curious... do you have any additional problems with time lag when recording at different distances from the performers?

Regards,

Carl

I think that we have established that you cannot move a video clip by less than a frame; if you could the resulting video would be terrible. With multiple cameras, you will never get exactly the same image at the same time unless they are synchronized electronically together. I highly doubt that Serif, being a run-of-the-mill commercial video program, would be sophisticated enough to allow you to move one video image a half frame to the right vs another video clip and get it right. The frame is the smallest that you can have.

That leaves moving the audio. I checked in VPX6 and I have no problem whatsoever of moving an audio object to anywhere within a frame of the video. See below. Track 1 is the video, 2 is the audio that I did not ungroup, 3 is an imported wav file. What you see on the timeline for the video is at the frame level - the first image and blue part is 1 frame. Note where I placed the audio on track 3 - part way along the frame.

BTW, if you want to move the audio that came with the video, you have to have it a on separate track and ungroup it from the video, otherwise audio and video move together.

See below where I ungrouped the audio from the video and nudged the audio slightly to the right, a portion of a frame.

Thus, question answered, yes you can move the audio anywhere along the timeline, even to less than a frame.

When you align 2 audio tracks, you can do it using the built-in tool, or align them visually using the waveform. It helps if there is an event like a clapper sound.

Carl mentioned the distance. Sound travels at 1100feet/s, if I recall correctly. With video at say 29.97fps, and a mic at about 37 feet from the target, you would be 1 frame off with the sound.

@Carl:

I now try to work always with a clapperboard - it makes things so much easier. I align the claps from the master audio track with the visual smacking of the clapperboard, ignoring the sound tracks from the cameras. This eliminates differential delays due to the cameras being at varying distances from the action. With modern consumer camcorders the lenses are so good you can zoom in really tight to singers even if the camera is a fair way away - so getting really tight lip sync throughout is vital.

Depending on the brand of audio recorder used, the sound track may need stretching of squashing by a few frames with respect to the visual claps recorded by the cameras. I use mainly Panasonic cameras which are pretty good at staying together; so if I align the visual claps at the start of a concert, the claps at the interval (say an hour later) will be at the same frame - as far as it is possible to judge the "point of clap" by eye.

I had some success using the Magix "Align other objects with this track" in my pre-purchase testing, but as soon as I'd bought the software it never worked usefully after that. If all the cameras were set up the same, and experienced the same mix of direct and reverb sound, then may be it would be useful - but I'm much happier simply working to clapperboard. However in a real live concert, even a classical music one, there are practical difficulties about climbing into the middle of a choir (to the one place you are sure all the cameras can see) to clap. And if you get it wrong as I did on Saturday, and happen to stand where one camera can't see you, the language back at the computer can get a bit blue, and in this situation the camera's own audio comes into its own as a substitute. Also for the sound of the clap to be detectable amongst general audience hubbub, more gain may be temporarily needed on the nearest mic channel than you will use for the actual recording.

Apart from that it's easy......

@John - thanks for your comments

Hi All,

Last night, well after I went to bed, I woke with a great thought -- use a .wav file export rather than the original sound from the clip.

Great idea but the audio tracks (.wav or original) still snap to video frame boundaries in MEP 2015 Premium. Perhaps Recycler will have to move up to VPX6!

ADDED: Fired up my old machine which has nearly as old VPX2.5 installed and find that it too allows free, not frame fixed, movement of audio.

Regards,

Carl

Hi,

We had a discussion recently on the Pro area under Forum about multi-cam, lining up tracks,etc. See also the video of the orchestra done by Greg in the same discussion.

@John C.B.

Thanks for that link to the Pro Forum - an interesting and useful discussion. Reassuring in a way  to see from Greg's Jazz video that it's not only my soloists who despite everything choose, or have, to perform in the only unlit area of the stage........!