Unable to Load Wav Files Above 44.1k 16-bit

CubeAce wrote on 6/22/2022, 1:12 AM

I have not had any wav file above 48kHz accepted by VPX or MEP and it can handle 32 bit but not 32 bit float.

Anything under those parameters seems fine but it may also depend on the audio interface. Of that I'm not quite sure but mine has to be set to 24 bit 48kHz. That does not effect the internal workings of my audio DAW but seems to effect MEP and VPX on my system. My normal import for a wav file would be 24 or 32 bit at 48kHz but I have had to set the audio interface to 24 bit 48kHz on all inputs and outputs. VPX should be able to handle 96kHz but I've never tried as I try to keep all material suitable for both programs.

If this is problematic for your DAW use I suggest creating a separate user account with different audio settings for for working between both programs and allow file sharing unless you have made your audio editor Samplitude within VPX. Personally I have left that on the default.

Ray

miguel_cullera wrote on 6/22/2022, 2:46 PM

Thanks Ray. It does not look like we had the same problem. I finally figured it out so I will post the solution in case anyone gets the same error message as me.

Turns out it was file size. I did not figure out to the exact size, but I would say starting above 2GB and larger. Once I kept trimming my file and it went below 2GB (1.85 in my case), it loaded just fine.

I load all formats that I use including 96k 32-bit float. It just has to be under a certain size (for me).

Maybe you can try a WAV file bigger than 2GB? Mine was close to 2.5gb. Or possibly someone can confirm there is an audio or WAV file size limit?

johnebaker wrote on 6/22/2022, 3:19 PM

@miguel_cullera

Hi

. . . . I use including 96k 32-bit float. . . . .

Can you load the whole file if its bit level is reduced to 24 bit?

Using 32 bit is unnecessary, the dynamic range of 1528 dB is impossible to reproduce on playback and has no advantage over 24 bit which has high dynamic range of 144 dB giving plenty of headroom for editing/filtering.

John EB
Forum Moderator

CubeAce wrote on 6/22/2022, 3:56 PM

@miguel_cullera

Hi Miguel.

OK.

I did load 96kHz 32 bit float files into VPX and MEP Both played them. It's been a while since I last tried. Possibly since MEP 2020 as I hadn't seen anything change in the program specs.Weird thing is, although I can import and play the file in MEP, the slider in the Mixer does not control the volume unless you import the file into the project itself. Even then the lag in response to the sliders and controls in the mixer is unusable still for me in real time.

No such similar problems in VPX.

I don't have anything even approaching those file sizes to try out. What time length do they represent?

Ray.

miguel_cullera wrote on 6/22/2022, 7:56 PM

@miguel_cullera

Hi

. . . . I use including 96k 32-bit float. . . . .

Can you load the whole file if its bit level is reduced to 24 bit?

Using 32 bit is unnecessary, the dynamic range of 1528 dB is impossible to reproduce on playback and has no advantage over 24 bit which has high dynamic range of 144 dB giving plenty of headroom for editing/filtering.

John EB
Forum Moderator

No, I cannot load the file at any common bit rate if the file conversion remains larger than 2 GB. I have the file in 48/24 and 48/16 with the same error message. When I went to 44.1/16 bit it worked but then I realized that the file was no longer larger than 2GB. I took my original and exported it into three parts, all under 2gb, and loaded them all fine (96/32float).

96k at 32 bit Float is a dream for field audio recording primarily for live bands or anything loud or with a wide dynamic range. It nearly eliminates any accidental digital clipping. I agree it is not needed in the end product but if you field record then take a second look. 32bit float is a big deal. I started using the new Zoom F3 for stereo field recording and I am impressed. You don't even really set levels on it.

Since 96/32 float is my native file format having these import into VPX is just a matter of ease. I assume it gets down sampled during rendering based on the audio settings of the app. However, I will probably adopt the workflow to down sample in Samplitude to 48/24 when it is intended for VPX.

Are you able to get a large WAV file (mine was 2.5gb) at any bit rate to see if you get the error message from my original post?

I suspect it is a WAV limitation which explains why many handheld recorders only record streaming to 2GB and then start a new file. It could also be if these devices use legacy files systems like FAT or Fat32 which do not support files larger than a certain size. I am getting old and rusty but I believe that is also at 2GB.

Let me know if you can confirm my findings. Thanks!

miguel_cullera wrote on 6/22/2022, 8:01 PM

I don't have anything even approaching those file sizes to try out. What time length do they represent?

Ray.

Hi Ray, the concert was nearly 2 hours recording with stereo mics at 96/32Float. I use it to replace the audio from the video recorders and even people's smart phone footage they give me, etc...

Thanks for checking it out! I was really puzzled.

CubeAce wrote on 6/23/2022, 2:17 AM

@miguel_cullera

Hi Miguel.

FAT 32 has a 4GB file limit as you would see from most digital action cameras. Some cameras can record above that and I have not seen anyone complain so far that those don't load into VPX or MEP but then the sound files within those recording would seldom if ever get to that file size themselves.

There could be another reason it doesn't work. Video editors don't seem to handle audio in the same way as DAWS. The audio is loaded and distributed in chunks that are kept in sync with the video frames and the audio is directly loaded into the system ram ready for use. There may be a limit placed on that as the chunks have to be dropped and other files loaded into place ready for the next set of frames. I will try creating a file larger than 4GB later today to try out.

As far as I'm aware, the loudest live recorded symphony orchestra has been seen to reach a peak level just shy of 100dbm within the orchestra itself. Once away from the orchestra that sound pressure level should start to drop which is just as well as most sensitive mics like the Neumann U 87 has a 94 dB SPL that would clip and distort before reaching those types of levels. In theory 24 bits should suffice but I understand your caution.

I am now intrigued as to how such a recording would transfer to an exported video without the aid of a kneed compressor.

Interesting stuff !

I will get back to you on the larger file size later.

Ray.

johnebaker wrote on 6/23/2022, 2:37 AM

@miguel_cullera, @CubeAce

Hi

WAV files theoretically can be up to 4GB in size for 32 bit floating format, and is not related to the FAT32 file size limit which is a different issue.

The 2GB limit appears to be a restriction that was imposed on WAV files and is still used now despite the use of 64 bit OS's, programs and filing systems that can handle files greater then 4GB,

The audio in the exported video will be compressed to restrict the 'loudness', particularly if intended for broadcast which for the EU is determined by the EBU R 128 standard.

John EB

CubeAce wrote on 6/23/2022, 4:03 AM

@miguel_cullera @johnebaker

Hi Miguel. Hi John.

I've just made 32 bit floating point wav files at 96kHz of varying sizes to test.

The largest coming in at over 11GB and any Windows player could not handle it but VLC player and WinAmp handled the file with no problems. VPX could not read even the header of the file.

Coming down in file sizes

At around 3.2GB and I suspect up to just under 4GB Windows could play the files but Still were not read correctly by VPX.

Even at 2.5 GB VPX could see the file but not play or import it it correctly, basically just allowing the file to show in the playback monitor but ignoring any attempt to play it.

Once I got to below 2GB (Just at 1.98GB) the file played back within VPX just fine.

Ray.

Former user wrote on 6/23/2022, 5:04 AM

@CubeAce Hi, i had a play with this although i know nowt about audio, the largest 32b float @ 96hz i could create was 1.3GB, it loaded into MEP ok & played but as you mentioned earlier the controls were delayed by a second or so,

If you are willing to share the smaller 2,5gb file i'd like to try it n see? 👍

CubeAce wrote on 6/23/2022, 9:22 AM

Hi Gid.

I think you will find the exact same problem as it is the way the sound file is handled within both MEP and VPX via RIFF (Resource Interchange File Format) that in theory could handle files up to 4GB but I think the Magix implementation of it has been deliberately reduced to be able to load multiple audio tracks to memory and keep everything in sync with the video content. Either that or to allow lower specified machines to work reasonably well or maybe a completely different reason. I don't know but it seems a deliberate choice made by Magix. I doubt it is a bug.

It is a part of Direct X (Surprise!) and originally developed for gaming but any type of file data can be handled by RIFF where needed.

Here is the Microsoft guide to RIFF handling. which basically explains how the file is read and held in 'chunks' ready for use and immediate release once not needed.

What you can do is play with the program settings and change the amount of buffers and samples around to see how the chunks are implemented and how that in turn delays the response of the mixer sliders, playback controls etc. as well as the scrub settings. The more audio tracks a project has the more it becomes a balancing act between buffers and sample settings to get a smooth playback of audio without too much unresponsiveness from the program. You get a similar problem with DAWs when trying to sync a live recording to an existing track which is why Steinberg came up with ASIO as a way around those problems. It may be possible to get less lag from within MEP or VPX by using a higher end sound card with low latency drivers but I'm not sure as the programs do not appear to support ASIO but instead relies on this Microsoft solution.

I can't really share that particular file as it contains tracks from local bands hence I've only used a few seconds from the intro of one track. If you like I can make another track but it will be nonsense audio wise.

Ray.