Don't know how bad your host is with plugins until you tried another

Rednroll wrote on 8/10/2021, 1:32 PM

For the past few months, I've been setting up my PC. Configuring preferences, installing VST plugins, organizing those plugins in the Plugin Manager by categories. My original thinking was that between Vegas Pro 18, Acid Pro 10, and Sound Forge Pro 15, combined they will handle most tasks I do and since I'm most familiar with them, I'll stick with them.

I started off by creating an excel document listing the name of each plugin, trying each plugin out and then categorizing it within each apps Plugin Manager. Although Vegas, Acid and SF all have plugin managers they don't have a way to share plugin manager organizations between them, so I had to do these organization efforts x3. That was my original intent of the excel document, just a way to keep my categories consistent between each app. Then when I tried them out I started to notice some versions worked and some didn't so then I started to mark the plugins which didn't seem to work in each app.

This was all going pretty good until I got to the point of setting up AP10 where I was finding a lot of plugin problems, not showing up, crashing the app, presets not showing/working, etc. Vegas Pro doesn't support VST3 plugins so that was a wash on that front. I originally chalked these problems up to "trouble-some plugins".

I kept running into frustrations with plugins and crashes while working with Acid Pro, so I started to migrate to Reaper. Originally, I didn't have Reaper in my game plan, especially since this meant I would have to organize my plugins in it's plugin manager for a 4th time and learn another program's workflow. What I soon discovered was that there were quite a few plugins which either didn't show, crashed, or run buggy in the Magix/Sony apps and when I tried those same plugins in Reaper they worked fine. This made me do a 180deg perspective change on where the problems reside. I went from pointing fingers at the plugin developers to now focusing more on the Hosts.

Here is the composite list of troublesome plugins I ran into, it unintentionally turned into plugin compatibility test. What was most eye opening was that I had 1 plugin (Antares Auto-tune) which didn't show up in Reaper which showed up and worked in the Magix apps but I ended up having a much longer list of plugin troubles in regards to the 3 of the Magix apps.

Magix needs to start doing some serious work on plugin compatibility and making these hosts more robusts. I found the majority of problems seemed to be with VST2x64 and VST3x64 plugins where the VST2x32 bit version seemed to work more often than not. Kind of odd since I was testing them all with the 64bit hosts.

Comments

shkr wrote on 8/10/2021, 2:35 PM

Unfortunatelly don't use any of them so cannot coment on compatibility but Waves use some kind of a wrapper/shell. SSL as far as I know has a big install for all of their plugins so maybe it is also a wrapper? 
Of course Acid devs should look into it. And into many other things as well ;)

You seem to enjoy Reaper. I think it's a program for scientists not musicians ;) Different strokes for different folks :)

Rednroll wrote on 8/10/2021, 4:46 PM

Waves uses a wrapper but SSL plugs are individual .VST3 and .DLL files for each plugin.


 

I don't enjoy Reaper so much in regards to it's user interface. What I do enjoy about Reaper is that it just works. It runs fast, efficient, most every plugin shows up and runs well and doesn't cause it to crash. It also has every feature you could want to allow working in it much easier without having to jump through hoops. Things like if you want to render 10 tracks to a single track, alls I have to do is select those tracks and click on a button and it's done. Try doing the same thing in Acid and while it's possible, it will take you 10 steps to do it. I wish I could say the same things about Acid Pro but I can't, so I have been slowly but surely migrating to Reaper and getting to know the ins and outs of Reaper along the way.

While at the surface and out of the box, I didn't like Reaper's user interface, I've gotten to know how to customize it to my preference and essentially at this point I'm creating a user interface that mimics Acid's while still having the solid performance of Reaper. That's a win/win for me. Every feature in Reaper you can assign to a button and create custom toolbars of those buttons. Then you can make those toolbars context aware and pop up when you double click on an item. So while Reaper currently has right click options reserved for itself, I'm turning every Acid Pro right click option into a double click button toolbar that pops up instead. Once I'm done doing that, Reaper will be just as easy to use as Acid Pro. That's the good thing about Reaper. If you don't like, you can customize it to do what you want.

I'm even renaming all the the menu items, menu lists to be the same as Acid so everything feels like I'm still working in Acid. Only difference when I'm done, no crashes and it works with all my plugins.

 

SP. wrote on 8/10/2021, 5:06 PM

@Rednroll Because of non-working VSTs in different DAWs I bought Plogue Bidule which is a plugin that can load any other plugin and combine them with a graphical node interface. You can build extensive networks with your plugins and save your graphs and load them in any audio software just by inserting Bidule as a plugin..It also runs as a standalone application. With this tool you can work around every lackluster plugin or routing implementation in any DAW. If a DAW is missing an important feature I just load Bidule and a plugin that provides this features and I'm good to go and I can stay with the tools I know and like to use and don't need to switch the DAW.

sheppo wrote on 8/10/2021, 6:05 PM

Nice! is that something you'd like to share with the community to allow us to refer to, and provide entries for our own plugins and versions? I think a shared resource such as this would help assist other users in what plugins / versions work and which don't. For example, GTR 2CAB - any type, works just fine for me, but I'm on a newer version of Waves. 10.0.58.60. We'll gloss over the fact Waves isn't officially supported on Acid Pro.. heh

Also, I might be able to gage developer interest to see if it's useful for them to help improve plugin compatibility, and therefore worth us investing time in.

The reaper aspect is entirely irrelevant for them though :-)

 

sheppo wrote on 8/10/2021, 6:07 PM

@SP. - I hadn't heard of Plogue Bidule before, but that's really interesting! I'd been eyeing up Meta Plugin (https://ddmf.eu/metaplugin-chainer-vst-au-rtas-aax-wrapper/) which looks similar, I guess I have two to compare now! :)

Rednroll wrote on 8/10/2021, 10:51 PM

Nice! is that something you'd like to share with the community to allow us to refer to, and provide entries for our own plugins and versions? I think a shared resource such as this would help assist other users in what plugins / versions work and which don't. For example, GTR 2CAB - any type, works just fine for me, but I'm on a newer version of Waves. 10.0.58.60. We'll gloss over the fact Waves isn't officially supported on Acid Pro.. heh

Also, I might be able to gage developer interest to see if it's useful for them to help improve plugin compatibility, and therefore worth us investing time in.

The reaper aspect is entirely irrelevant for them though :-)

 


I've seen a similar user created plugin compatibility list on the Vegas forum for video plugins. May be a good idea to start one for Acid but what I observed on the Vegas forum is that it tends to start out good with a lot of initial user support but then just gets forgotten about and outdated rather quickly after a couple months has passed. So you see a list of outdated plugins after about a year when the newer releases start to come out.

I do believe such a list could be useful to pass along to the developers so some of these plugins are on their radar to do some testing.

My list had gotten somewhat confusing as I was going along. I originally was marking each version of each plugin with an X if it failed in some manner in the 3 Magix apps and a circle if it worked fine, but then more recently decided as I was categorizing these plugins in Reaper to go back and test the ones I had problems with in the Magix apps to see how they worked inside of Reaper, and went back and marked them with a green "O" showing they worked. I was actually surprised they worked fine in Reaper since many of failures were common among the 3 Magix apps. For example, the Relab LX480 VST2x64 plugin gave all 3 Magix apps grief, crashes in most instances but the VST2x86 worked fine. So then later I tried the VST2x64 Relab plugin in Reaper and was really surprised it worked well. However, the comments I made in the right column are pretty accurate. If I was doing this again, I would have made a pass/fail checkbox for each app along with a observing description for each app. I really hadn't started this as a test, otherwise it would have been much more organized Test check list. I still turned out that way....kinda LOL!

shkr wrote on 8/11/2021, 1:20 AM

@SP. yea - this is exactly what I'm doing as well but instead of Bidule I use Blue Cat Patchwork (now I can even multithread parallel chains inside it) and DDMF MetaPlugin. Everything works and I have chains I can use across many other DAWs and sound editors. Another option could be MUX by MuLabs which is interesting now when they added audio sequencer.

Anyway - Acid still should improve on plugin compatibility

 

Former user wrote on 8/11/2021, 2:45 AM

Unfortunatelly don't use any of them so cannot coment on compatibility but Waves use some kind of a wrapper/shell. SSL as far as I know has a big install for all of their plugins so maybe it is also a wrapper? 
Of course Acid devs should look into it. And into many other things as well ;)

You seem to enjoy Reaper. I think it's a program for scientists not musicians ;) Different strokes for different folks :)

It's not a Waves thing. PreSonus also uses a wrapper. and I could crash Samplitude Pro X4 on demand with some plug-ins, like Output Movement's VST3.

MAGIX has a bad history with VST Plug-in Compatibility, particularly VST3.

I think ACID Pro 9 inherited Samplitude Pro X4's VST Engine, and this was backported to ACID Pro 8.0 when they added VST3 support and updated it later. I'm not sure if this was updated for v10, but people are still reporting VST Plug-in issues on Samplitude Pro X6.

For some reason MAGIX has never really been able to nail that part of their software.

I had huge issues in VEGAS Pro where the software would rescan ALL of my VST2 plug-ins EVERY TIME I loaded the software. It was like 4-5 minutes to load the NLE, because the scanner is (or was) slow.

REAPER can be made usable. You can only really theme like half the UI, but that's good enough for a lot of people. I do find the default UX offensive. Some toolbars you basically have to build yourself, beuacse hte developers don't provide practical defaults out of the box, etc. I don't have time to do their job for them. Maybe for a free software, but not for a DAW that costs $226 (Commercial License).

If ACID Pro had better ReWire support one could route each track to a different track in the host DAW. That would have allowed people to use ACID for what it's good at (Sampling, Chopping and Arranging Loops) while avoiding the Plug-in traps inherent to MAGIX's VST Engine - as you would use the plug-ins in the host DAW... Well, unless you use a ton of clip FX.

Rednroll wrote on 8/11/2021, 4:28 AM

@Rednroll Because of non-working VSTs in different DAWs I bought Plogue Bidule which is a plugin that can load any other plugin and combine them with a graphical node interface. You can build extensive networks with your plugins and save your graphs and load them in any audio software just by inserting Bidule as a plugin..It also runs as a standalone application. With this tool you can work around every lackluster plugin or routing implementation in any DAW. If a DAW is missing an important feature I just load Bidule and a plugin that provides this features and I'm good to go and I can stay with the tools I know and like to use and don't need to switch the DAW.


Thank you for the suggestion. Honestly, I like working in Vegas Pro much more than I do in Acid Pro in regards to working with strictly audio. If they would have added the Midi and Loop sequencing from Acid into Vegas or the full functionality of Vegas's audio capabilities into Acid, or even the capability to Rewire Acid to Vegas, I would have been a very happy camper. I've been pushing for that since the Sonic Foundry days. It just aint going to happen. Add these plugin weaknesses with Acid and it just throws another nail in it's coffin for me.

Now that I'm coming up to speed on Reaper's customization capabilities, I am starting to see a clearer path of finally getting that combined capability, along with the interface that I like in Acid and Vegas.

Below is link of a .gif showing a preview of a customization I just completed in Reaper. You may notice it's very Acid/Vegas like. 😀

I configured Reaper so that when I double click on the bottom half of an audio event, up pops a custom toolbar I created which includes the functions I often use when right clicking on an audio event in Vegas/Acid. Reaper also lets me do the same type of thing when clicking on the top half of the audio waveform of creating yet another custom toolbar which will pop up. I'm still working on creating that one where I will likely include take management and event grouping features just like in Acid/Vegas.

https://i.postimg.cc/g2ZgL54F/Media-Switch-and-Channels.gif

I don't work with loops a lot but I do really like Acid's pencil and erasure tool when I do. I'm still figuring out Reaper's similar loop paradigm and will be attempting to configure that as well, but if I'm unable to achieve that similarity, unlike Vegas I know I could always run Acid Pro as a Rewire slave to Reaper and just reserve my uses with Acid of what it originally started off as, a loop sequencer. In regards to Midi, Reaper's midi is already very similar to Acid's. Plus I'll add, my Behringer X-Touch One HW controller works much better with Reaper than it does with Acid and Vegas.

 

 

shkr wrote on 8/11/2021, 5:28 AM

MAGIX has a bad history with VST Plug-in Compatibility, particularly VST3.

hmmm this is really strange. I thought Steinberg stopped licensing vst2 because vst3 is better documented and should be easier to implement. seems it's otherwise. at least for Magix ;) although I think Ableton was also very slow with vst3 support.

@Rednroll glad you're making friends with Reaper. Everyone should find tools that work for them. :) But in Reaper's case I'm on Trensharo camp.

 

Former user wrote on 8/15/2021, 4:14 PM

VST2 became the Windows XP of the plug-in world. Developers don't move unless forced to. VST3 is better, but they won't invest in porting over or developing for it unless they have a reason. Killing the v2 SDK gives them that reason.

Reason also doesn't support VST3.

SP. wrote on 8/15/2021, 4:27 PM

@Rednroll 

I thought Steinberg stopped licensing vst2 because vst3 is better documented and should be easier to implement.

New VST developers are not getting legal access to the VST2 SDK anymore as far as I know. Of course established developers that are developing plugins since before Steinberg dropped VST2 support still have access to their backed up versions of the VST2 SDK.

@Former user

VST2 became the Windows XP of the plug-in world.

Nice analogy.

Rednroll wrote on 8/16/2021, 1:17 AM

When I install plugins, I install both the VST2 and VST3 versions when available since Magix's Vegas Pro doesn't support VST3 plugins. The problems I'm running into most often is that both VSTx64 and VST3x64 versions don't work in Acid. VST3 seems to have the most problems both 32bit and 64bit versions. VST2 x86 (32bit versions) seem to work in Acid more often. So unsure why you're telling me about VST2 being discontinued, seems like a better message for Magix to get on the ball and start working on Acid Pro to better support VST3 plugins and get it inside of Vegas Pro while they're at it.

They all work inside of Reaper doesn't matter if they're VST2 or VST3, they all just work and while I'm working inside of Reaper I use the VST3 x64 versions when available. I wish Magix would give me that same capability inside of Acid and I wouldn't be bothering to switch to Reaper.

Former user wrote on 8/17/2021, 7:32 AM

When I install plugins, I install both the VST2 and VST3 versions when available since Magix's Vegas Pro doesn't support VST3 plugins. The problems I'm running into most often is that both VSTx64 and VST3x64 versions don't work in Acid. VST3 seems to have the most problems both 32bit and 64bit versions. VST2 x86 (32bit versions) seem to work in Acid more often. So unsure why you're telling me about VST2 being discontinued, seems like a better message for Magix to get on the ball and start working on Acid Pro to better support VST3 plugins and get it inside of Vegas Pro while they're at it.

They all work inside of Reaper doesn't matter if they're VST2 or VST3, they all just work and while I'm working inside of Reaper I use the VST3 x64 versions when available. I wish Magix would give me that same capability inside of Acid and I wouldn't be bothering to switch to Reaper.

This applies to new development, not existing or older products. For example, Super 8 (NI's newer Synth) is VST3-only. They don't have a VST2 version.

So, if you want to use it and your DAW doesn't support VST3, or is problematic with them, you are relegated to hosting it within Komplete Kontrol to access it.

As more new products are introduced, we will see the weight of this decision increase.

Rednroll wrote on 8/17/2021, 9:59 AM

This applies to new development, not existing or older products. For example, Super 8 (NI's newer Synth) is VST3-only. They don't have a VST2 version.

So, if you want to use it and your DAW doesn't support VST3, or is problematic with them, you are relegated to hosting it within Komplete Kontrol to access it.

As more new products are introduced, we will see the weight of this decision increase.

Yes, you're really not informing me of anything I didn't already know, so unsure the reasons you felt the need to try to educate me on VST plugins. I've had multiple discussions and feature requests for Vegas to support VST3 for the exact reasons you described but I haven't seen any audio additions in Vegas since Magix acquired it. A new version is suppose to come out this month. Willing to bet VST3 plugin support is still not in Vegas Pro in that new VP19 release and for certain if it does, many are certain to not work.

Toontracks VSTi's which I own are VST3 only. They didn't work inside of Acid. I had to move things around to get Acid to finally recognize them, others experienced the same problem. Antares Auto-tune and Celemony Melodyne, also VST3 only. Melodyne also doesn't work inside of Acid for me as my list shows and others have reported on this forum problems with Melodyne in Acid as well, which is odd since they are now bundling it with Acid. I also tested multiple VSTi's which are not included on my list. Quite a few VSTi3 instruments didn't work in Acid. You know where they all did work with no problems or monkeying around and no need of some Komplete Kontrol wrapper? You know the thing. 😄

By the time Vegas Pro gets VST3 plugin support, Reaper will have already surpassed Vegas on video editing capabilities. They already added video editing to Reaper and by the time Reaper does surpass Vegas on that front, I will have fully gotten my chops entrenched in using it and have it configured to my liking. The only reason I continue to install the VST2 version plugins on my system is due to the lack of support of VST3 plugins for Vegas Pro as I mentioned previously. Considering Reaper only has 3 developers on staff, it really makes you wonder what Magix could do with Acid, Vegas, and Sound Forge if they actually dedicated some developers to those products and let them actually work on them instead of some once a year rush to tweak a few features, swap out some icons, bundle it with some 3rd party software and call it a new version.

PAULJAMES-CHATMAN wrote on 8/29/2021, 7:19 PM
"Melodyne also doesn't work inside of Acid for me as my list shows and others have reported on this forum problems with Melodyne in Acid as well, which is odd since they are now bundling it with Acid"

Yeah, I got Melodyne 4 with ACID Pro 9, and Melodyne 5 with ACID Pro 10, and both standalone UIs crashed my system. Getting them to run inside of ACID was always problematic 😒. I often wonder why is it in the bundle if it doesn't work as expected? 😕🙁